Ed Levine posts about something we at Slice have commented on for years: the sorry state of New York pizza. In his post Pizza Slice Crisis in NYC, he writes:
The NYC slice, once a justifiable source of culinary pride in this town, is going to hell in a hand basket filled with pizza cheese and canned pizza sauce. Think about it. The streets of Manhattan are filled with slice joints, each one worse than the next. You know the slices I'm talking about. The crust is thick and gummy. Every bite brings a mouthful of unbaked dough. The sauce is canned pizza sauce. It tastes like Franco American on a bad day. The cheese is that abomination called pizza cheese, and there's so much of it on every piece that slice weights are approaching one pound.
I call this the Ray's syndrome. Ever since some variation of a Ray's (Original Ray's, Ray Bari, Imitation Ray's, ) started appearing on every corner, the state of the NYC slice has never been worse. Other mini-chains have also descended on our city like some kind of slice plague, and the situation has reached epic proportions. Our quality slice culture is fast disappearing. Interstingly, this fast deteriorating situation seems to be limited to Manhattan.
Brooklyn's quality slice culture remains intact, or certainly more intact than Manhattan's. Certain neighborhood in Queens have upheld slice standards well. And Staten Island, the home of Nunzio's and Joe and Pat's, is a veritable beacon of pizza slice quality.
That pretty much sums it up. Part of the reason I started Slice was to document the search for worthwhile pizza here and to help others find it. Since I've been at it, most of the places I've visited with great pizza have been strictly by-the-pie.
Such is the state of the slice itself that I hardly consider grabbing a single piece of pizza from a random pizzeria in Manhattan.* And that effectively rules out my favorite food for lunch.
So what's going on? My own not-so-intricate and not-so-novel conspiracy theory goes like this: Rents in Manhattan are too high, and pizza consumers just don't care.
If you're a pizzeria owner and you're doing bang-up business serving crap pizza to loads of people willing to eat it, what's your incentive to craft a pie made with fresh ingredients and good cheese? You'd be crazy to do so given the price on square footage on the island.
And the crowds keeping many of the subpar purveyors in business are primarily concerned with a quick meal on the go. Pizza, for many New Yorkers, is, sadly, not a destination meal. Sure, a lot of them probably know what they're eating is a shit slice, but when you've got 20 minutes for lunch and $3 in your pocket, what are gonna do?
This, then, is why I think many of the destination pizzerias are in out-of-the-way places. The pizzaioli who are concerned with high-quality slices and pies can't afford to ply their trade in high-rent areas. And so the destination pizzerias end up in the outer boroughs or in far-flung areas of Manhattan.
Perhaps I'll expand on this later. For now ... off to lunch! (And, most likely, it won't be pizza.)
I have a confession to make. I don't even really like pizza (because I'm slightly lactose intolerant, and there are many other ways I prefer to abuse the limit, such as ice cream or straight-cheese,... yummy... cheese) that often. But Adrienne's is fantastic (you've definitely been there) and I go there almost weekly now because it's that good. I test my stomach almost weekly... because it's that good. But you knew that. Anyway, I can't testify to your statement because I never go into random pizzerias for a slice. Someone once said "To guys, sex is like pizza: even bad, it's good" and I had to shrug and say that personally it's never going to be like that because good pizza is heaven; bad pizza is a waste of time AND money, even at a few bucks a slice.
If it's a matter of the economics of owning a slice joint in Manhattan, then the question that needs to be asked is: What would people be willing to pay for a really high-quality slice? $3? $4? The reality is that the cost of a slice of pizza has not gone up significantly in years -- IIRC they were about $1.50 when I moved here in 1993. So if the average is now $2.00, it's a safe bet that the cost of a slice has not risen relative to increases in rent, cost of labor, ingredients, etc.
I've also been very depressed about the state of NYC slices. A recent move in to the city from Brooklyn had me nearly in tears after some awful trips to Too Boots, Rays, and a number of other totally crap slice shops. Jumping on the L to hit Tony's on Graham avenue was hardly the solution. I've since discovered a handful of places that serve good slices (Bleecker St Pizza near my new home, Bela Vita Pizzeria up near work) but the good slices are certainly few & far between. Please don't give up. Try every slice you can and share the (increasingly rare) success stories with your famished readers. PS> thanks KM, i'll give Sacco a try sometime soon.
I'm actually surprised there aren't slice places trying to distinguish themselves. It seems similar to the food cart situation. While most every food cart serves the same food at the same prices, there are a few who do it really well (e.g. Tony Dragonas) and people will make a special effort to search them out. If a slice place made a fantastic slice of pizza, people would make the effort to find them. But I think you're right Adam. If someone has a perfect location they have very little incentive to make a quality slice. Unfortunately, it's a waste of time and money for them.
what's even worse is that now you have to spend big bucks to get good pizza in the city. No.28 [pizza] on carmine street is finally hitting it's stride but to spend 30 bucks! on a pie is INSANE! Delicious but INSANE!!! [insert image of Crazy Eddie here]
By the slice Pizza is now better in New Jersey than New York. I say this without hesitation. Heck, we still have Italians here! All the ones in Manhattan have moved away (to New Jersey) or died. Pizzatown USA in Elmwood Park!!
I've been making that high-rent argument for years. And, to be sure, pizza is not the only food that Manhattan lacks in good quality. But I no longer buy this argument. First, Manhattan rents have *always* been considerably more expensive than the rest of the city. One might make a good argument that Manhattan pizza was better in the 1960s, something I'm too young to verify. But even in the '60s, Manhattan rents were three or four times what they were elsewhere in the city. So that doesn't add up. Second, Park Slope and Williamsburg are not exactly low-rent districts, to put it mildly. But good-quality pizza is doing okay there. And the pizza is coming from relatively new restaurants, not holdovers from when these were middle-class neighborhoods. I am not qualified to make a generalization that New York pizza is not as good as it was in the 1960s. But it has changed a lot. I imagine one could have found great pizza *slices* anywhere back then. Today great pizza is largely limited to pie-only restaurants. It has become a destination food. That has its good side and its bad side. The economics are interesting, though. Little Italy charges more for a mass-produced slice next to Grand Central than Di Fara does for a top-ingredient one in Flatbush. Guess which one I'm going with?
You can still find good pizza at random joints. Good predictors: 1: Is it the only location you know of? Chains tend to suck, and even mini-chains are rarely as good as fully independent shops. 2: How much space do they devote to "ready" pies? None is best (the legendary places), and a long row with little nameplates (OFRay's) is worst. 3: What else do they do besides pizza? Again, "nothing" (the legendary places) is best, and burgers, wraps & toss-your-own-salads are a bad sign. Heroes and some perfunctory pasta dishes are OK, I find. 4: Is there a guy making pies as you stand there? If the pie is tossed when you order, that's a very good sign. If you can't for the life of you figure out where they actually assemble the dough-sauce-cheese-etc, go somewhere else. But even if you're getting a slice off of a ready pie from the counter, continual tossing is reassuring. All that said, I like my local slice shop: Little Vincent's.
Well all I have to say is I'm happy I'm dirt-poor so I have no choice but to live in South Brooklyn and eat the best pizza in the world!!! Adam may remember I am anti-DiFara chick that grew up one block from Avenue J. Manhattan has a lot of things I like. Good restaurants, good shopping, but for pizza, I just need to go home and take out. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to convince people to get on the subway and go to Brooklyn for the pizza? Obviously, some people's priorities are out of whack. I find myself a rare exception. I went to Astoria the other day to find cheap halloumi and Greek yogurt. LOL.
Manhattan was never THE place for pizza for years. The outerboroughs and even Long Island have made far better pizza. If you don't believe me try Mama Teresa's in Mineola. I grew up in Queens and think my home borough is the best place to get good pizza in NY. The Bronx would be a close second and Brooklyn would be third. This site is too snobbish and focused on Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Thanks for commenting! Your comment has been accepted and will appear in a moment.
Add a comment:
Previewing your comment:
HTML Hints
Some HTML is OK: <a href="URL">link</a>, <strong>strong</strong>, <em>em</em>
Comment Guidelines
Post whatever you want, just keep it pleasant. We reserve the right to delete off-topic or inflammatory comments. Learn more at our Comment Policy page.
Print
13 Comments:
I have a confession to make. I don't even really like pizza (because I'm slightly lactose intolerant, and there are many other ways I prefer to abuse the limit, such as ice cream or straight-cheese,... yummy... cheese) that often. But Adrienne's is fantastic (you've definitely been there) and I go there almost weekly now because it's that good. I test my stomach almost weekly... because it's that good. But you knew that. Anyway, I can't testify to your statement because I never go into random pizzerias for a slice. Someone once said "To guys, sex is like pizza: even bad, it's good" and I had to shrug and say that personally it's never going to be like that because good pizza is heaven; bad pizza is a waste of time AND money, even at a few bucks a slice.
Slice yvo at 10:04PM on 09/29/06
If it's a matter of the economics of owning a slice joint in Manhattan, then the question that needs to be asked is: What would people be willing to pay for a really high-quality slice? $3? $4? The reality is that the cost of a slice of pizza has not gone up significantly in years -- IIRC they were about $1.50 when I moved here in 1993. So if the average is now $2.00, it's a safe bet that the cost of a slice has not risen relative to increases in rent, cost of labor, ingredients, etc.
Slice Brian Preston-Campbell at 10:22PM on 09/29/06
Want a GREAT slice. Try Sacco....9th Avenue, near 54th Street. Perfect $2 slice to grab on the run.
Slice KM at 5:40PM on 09/30/06
I've also been very depressed about the state of NYC slices. A recent move in to the city from Brooklyn had me nearly in tears after some awful trips to Too Boots, Rays, and a number of other totally crap slice shops. Jumping on the L to hit Tony's on Graham avenue was hardly the solution. I've since discovered a handful of places that serve good slices (Bleecker St Pizza near my new home, Bela Vita Pizzeria up near work) but the good slices are certainly few & far between. Please don't give up. Try every slice you can and share the (increasingly rare) success stories with your famished readers. PS> thanks KM, i'll give Sacco a try sometime soon.
Slice andy at 9:48PM on 09/30/06
I'm actually surprised there aren't slice places trying to distinguish themselves. It seems similar to the food cart situation. While most every food cart serves the same food at the same prices, there are a few who do it really well (e.g. Tony Dragonas) and people will make a special effort to search them out. If a slice place made a fantastic slice of pizza, people would make the effort to find them. But I think you're right Adam. If someone has a perfect location they have very little incentive to make a quality slice. Unfortunately, it's a waste of time and money for them.
capndesign at 5:56PM on 10/01/06
what's even worse is that now you have to spend big bucks to get good pizza in the city. No.28 [pizza] on carmine street is finally hitting it's stride but to spend 30 bucks! on a pie is INSANE! Delicious but INSANE!!! [insert image of Crazy Eddie here]
Slice conduit group at 8:43PM on 10/01/06
By the slice Pizza is now better in New Jersey than New York. I say this without hesitation. Heck, we still have Italians here! All the ones in Manhattan have moved away (to New Jersey) or died. Pizzatown USA in Elmwood Park!!
Slice Weekly J at 10:28PM on 10/02/06
I've been making that high-rent argument for years. And, to be sure, pizza is not the only food that Manhattan lacks in good quality. But I no longer buy this argument. First, Manhattan rents have *always* been considerably more expensive than the rest of the city. One might make a good argument that Manhattan pizza was better in the 1960s, something I'm too young to verify. But even in the '60s, Manhattan rents were three or four times what they were elsewhere in the city. So that doesn't add up. Second, Park Slope and Williamsburg are not exactly low-rent districts, to put it mildly. But good-quality pizza is doing okay there. And the pizza is coming from relatively new restaurants, not holdovers from when these were middle-class neighborhoods. I am not qualified to make a generalization that New York pizza is not as good as it was in the 1960s. But it has changed a lot. I imagine one could have found great pizza *slices* anywhere back then. Today great pizza is largely limited to pie-only restaurants. It has become a destination food. That has its good side and its bad side. The economics are interesting, though. Little Italy charges more for a mass-produced slice next to Grand Central than Di Fara does for a top-ingredient one in Flatbush. Guess which one I'm going with?
seltzerboy at 8:28PM on 10/04/06
You can still find good pizza at random joints. Good predictors: 1: Is it the only location you know of? Chains tend to suck, and even mini-chains are rarely as good as fully independent shops. 2: How much space do they devote to "ready" pies? None is best (the legendary places), and a long row with little nameplates (OFRay's) is worst. 3: What else do they do besides pizza? Again, "nothing" (the legendary places) is best, and burgers, wraps & toss-your-own-salads are a bad sign. Heroes and some perfunctory pasta dishes are OK, I find. 4: Is there a guy making pies as you stand there? If the pie is tossed when you order, that's a very good sign. If you can't for the life of you figure out where they actually assemble the dough-sauce-cheese-etc, go somewhere else. But even if you're getting a slice off of a ready pie from the counter, continual tossing is reassuring. All that said, I like my local slice shop: Little Vincent's.
Slice BSD at 6:17PM on 10/05/06
Well all I have to say is I'm happy I'm dirt-poor so I have no choice but to live in South Brooklyn and eat the best pizza in the world!!! Adam may remember I am anti-DiFara chick that grew up one block from Avenue J. Manhattan has a lot of things I like. Good restaurants, good shopping, but for pizza, I just need to go home and take out. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to convince people to get on the subway and go to Brooklyn for the pizza? Obviously, some people's priorities are out of whack. I find myself a rare exception. I went to Astoria the other day to find cheap halloumi and Greek yogurt. LOL.
Slice ilana at 9:36PM on 10/06/06
You're spoiled. A bad slice in NYC is a good slice in Nashville.
Slice Glenn at 3:27AM on 10/07/06
Manhattan was never THE place for pizza for years. The outerboroughs and even Long Island have made far better pizza. If you don't believe me try Mama Teresa's in Mineola. I grew up in Queens and think my home borough is the best place to get good pizza in NY. The Bronx would be a close second and Brooklyn would be third. This site is too snobbish and focused on Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Slice Anonymous at 11:22PM on 01/22/07
i concur with bsd..... Little Vincent's is one of the best......
jellokatt at 3:58PM on 12/16/07