Posted by Adam Kuban, February 24, 2009 at 11:55 AM
If you don't follow the comings and goings of coal-oven pizzerias around the country—and, really, if you're halfway normal, why would you?—then you may not know there are other Grimaldi's outside the New York City area.
Sure, you might know about the Hoboken Grimaldi's, but, wait ... there's one in Texas? Say wha?
Yes, there are a handful in Texas and the Southwest, all (or most) rocking coal ovens, from what I can tell. Also, from what I can piece together, they are loosely affiliated with the original only in that a different set of owners licensed the name (sort of like the East Harlem Patsy's and the mini-chain Patsy's).
Sounds good, right? Pioneers extending the manifest destiny of coal-oven supremacy throughout the mild West.
A coal-fired pizza oven operates at extremely high temperatures. It cooks the pizza very quickly and gives it a slightly smoky flavor. If you make a pizza crust of an average thickness, the hot floor of the brick oven will char the bottom of the crust by the time the pizza is completely cooked. Coal oven pizza aficionados love the char--they savor the crunchy blackened crust the same way Texas barbecue lovers treasure the crispy burnt ends of a brisket.
Unfortunately, Texans weren't raised on coal oven pizza and they see do not see the allure of a "burnt" pizza. And so the whole coal-fired brick oven pizza phenomenon is kind of a joke in Houston.
Apparently, all the Grimaldi's in Arizona and the ones in Texas have learned the hard way that customers send back the "burnt" pizzas and have been cooking their crusts to a dull blond ever since.
Guess you make what sells. I haven't had THESE pizzas, but smoky or "burnt" flatbread tastes pretty cool; although, some restaurants get a little carried away with it (yak!). I find it weird that it doesn't go over well in TX, where I get the impression people barbecue like mad there...?
I ate at Patsy Grimaldi's in Scottsdale, AZ and found no lack of char. I took a picture of the pie, but unfortunately not the upskirt. You can see the charring on the cornicione, however. Flickr Pic
Like pizzaPlease, Patsy Grimaldi's in Scottsdale served me a fine pizza.
I know the problem, however. I show people pictures of some of my wonderful Pepe's and Bianco pizzas, and a fraction of people go "eww, terrible, burnt, how can you eat that." They don't get it.
In the end, pizza is like Christianity, with a central tenet, but all sorts of competing secondary dogma.
I wouldn't consider 1 pizza from each location much evidence. Based on my experience eating Grimaldi's pizzas (which is statistically significant, to put it politely), the Brooklyn pie above is overly charred, and, of course, the Houston one is under-charred. But, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the results were reversed for somebody else on different days.
"And they have learned through experience that folks out West don't see the attraction of a charred pizza crust." That deserves a [citation needed].
Don't quote me on any of the following, I could be wrong, but, as for licensing the name, that's not really the case. All the Grimaldi's locations except 1 are owned by the same family - it's just not the Grimaldi family. Patsy and his original partner still own 1 of the Grimaldi's Pizzerias - the Hoboken one. The other family bought the Brooklyn location back when there were only Brooklyn and Hoboken, and have opened all the other ones since then (except that Floyd Bennett Field place).
I'll also add that I've eaten numerous times at various Arizona locations (mostly for lunch - that way I'm not starving to death while I wait for Bianco to open), and I've gotten quite a range of charredness.
OK, I'll stop talking about consistency. For a little while.
We're seeing the same sort of thing with the imported oven at A Good Pie here in St. Louis. Not only do we hear the "it's got black spots, so it's burnt", but we also get complaints that it's not so crisp it sticks out without any support from underneath. (This the result of St. Louis' affection for pizza that's derisively called Cheez Whiz on a cracker.)
I've eaten numerous times at the Grimaldi's in Dallas' West Village and the one in Allen. I was really excited for them to open - but so disappointed practically every time I've been there. Granted they are still relatively new and it's not like they have lifelong pizzaiolos running the ovens - but overall the pizzas they turn out are pretty "meh". I can't imagine these are they same pies as the original in NY...these locations are CLEARLY chains - from the decor to the menus on placemats (complete with supplier logos...thank you "hormel"!) it is totally formulaic. Generally the pizzas are cooked to death - dry - with no char which means the ovens aren't hot enough. Most of these locations are in the suburbs and there are a lot of NY transplants in Dallas, but the suburbs don't seem to have a sophisticated palate and prefer a cardboard crust as a topping delivery device only. Over seasoned over cooked. Coal Vines in Dallas does a much better job of NY Style Pizza and Olivella's does a great Neapolitan. Sad but true - many Texans just don't get a good "char" or fior di latte...and god forbid you should actually taste a San Marzano tomato instead of a mouthful of dried oregano. I have pics of various pizzas on flickr at www.flickr.com/photos/canerosso/sets
Is the burnt crust deal similar to India Pale Ale winning the Beer Cup ever year?
Everybody seems to think that IPAs are the best, even though they taste like ink. Everybody also seems to think that pizza crust isn't any good unless it is burnt?
I've been to the one in Allen and I love it. They do burn the pizza a little more there being that most of the people that live in the Allen/Plano/McKinney area are mostly from the North East. It's pretty damn close to NYC pizza.
Also for good jersey pizza, I go to a place in Plano called Joes Pizza at the Tollway and W Parker Rd. Fresh garlic, well done..... amazing.
Maybe it was a one off, but when I made a special trip to Grimaldi's Brooklyn location in 2006, though a great pizza by the standards I am used to in the Bahamas, I am sure the crust more closely resembled that Texan upskirt.
What can one expect from the Death Penalty State. Perhaps Texas Grimaldi's should let the customers shoot the "burnt" pizza before they send it back, you know, as a marketing gimmick. Now, maybe if they were still using "the chair", charred wouldn't seem so, you know, alien.
THe one the left looks better. Nto because of the char, but look at the cheese. It's just ozzing with goodness, or so it would seem. I think that's one thing that N.Y. pizaa has over a lot of places. Fresh cheese.
I prefer the char myself, and am disappointed that my local shop in Va. (Dino's Pizza Shop) stopped doing it unless requested. Sadly they aren't coal-fired pizzas, but they still make some of the best pizza I have ever had south of northern N.J.
Guess I am not surprised.. I grew up on the east coast and when I got to Austin in '83, there was not a decent pie in sight.. We have a few but people are, well, strange about their food.. mark miller, well known and respected, open a restaurant here in Austin.. It did not do well because the food was too spicy!!!!! WTF... So it does not surprise me that they don't really care for the goods.. All hat and no cattle.. kind of like whats his name, the yale graduate who was our last prez..
We have one of these Grimaldi's in Las Vegas, they do char their pizza. They are alittle inconsistant, but overall its by far the best NY style pizza in Vegas, and it is comparable to the top NY pizzas anywhere. I've heard people say they liked it better than the one in Brooklyn. Go figure. Easily the 2nd best overall pizza in Vegas outside of "Settebello" which is one of the premier Neapolitan style places in the US.
We have one of these Grimaldi's in Las Vegas, they do char their pizza. They are alittle inconsistant, but overall its by far the best NY style pizza in Vegas, and it is comparable to the top NY pizzas anywhere. I've heard people say they liked it better than the one in Brooklyn. Go figure. Easily the 2nd best overall pizza in Vegas outside of "Settebello" which is one of the premier Neapolitan style places in the US.
@Paulie: You got me. It's true.
@Summerfield: Apologies. I am sorry. I went there myself. Sorry about not catching your charred humor. You know humor in print. Sometimes doesn't translate. About half of what I write doesn't. :/
It might just be me, but the Texas pizza's crust looks significantly thicker than that of the Brooklyn pie (both in the picture and personal experience). With a scorching coal oven, a thick crust would take longer to cook and be overly charred-even by NY standards. NY pies are, in general, a thinner crust (like those in Italy, especially Southern Italy and Napoli) and a crisper experience than that of pies I've had in the rest of the country. Perhaps if the franchises thinned out the crust, more non-New Yorkers would 'get it'!
Also, the Brooklyn pie has more of an 'artisan' look to it than the Texas pie; redder tomato, not spread in a thin layer over the entirety of the pie, with a better contrast to the mozzarella.
Dull blond? While I do enjoy the charred crust, I think there is something to be said for the blond crust. It packs just as much flavor as the charred.
it should come as no surprise that the various outposts of grimaldi's are inconsistent when you consider that the original brooklyn one (cadmen plaza, not floyd bennett) is pretty widely known for inconsistency and undercooking their pizzas.
@Adam: Thanks. I knew you'd understand. But, back to pizza. I guess the trick to charring is to not dry out the top of the pizza. One of the Tomatoes Apizza stores up here in Detroit Metro has a coal-fired oven. I went there a while back and, while his (Mike Weinstein's) cheese pizza was beautifully charred, he dried out his top a bit, which was a detraction.
Long after this post I have to say that I love my pizza charred and I'm a native Texan that still lives in Texas. Target markets are important to please in order for a business to succeed, but let's not categorize the tastes of the entire state's population.
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34 Comments:
Guess you make what sells. I haven't had THESE pizzas, but smoky or "burnt" flatbread tastes pretty cool; although, some restaurants get a little carried away with it (yak!). I find it weird that it doesn't go over well in TX, where I get the impression people barbecue like mad there...?
Cassaendra at 12:23PM on 02/24/09
I ate at Patsy Grimaldi's in Scottsdale, AZ and found no lack of char. I took a picture of the pie, but unfortunately not the upskirt. You can see the charring on the cornicione, however. Flickr Pic
pizzaPlease at 12:51PM on 02/24/09
I eat at the Grimaldi's in Allen and love it. IT is the best pizza I have had in DFW. Burnt or not I would never send it back.
saesteve416 at 12:52PM on 02/24/09
Like pizzaPlease, Patsy Grimaldi's in Scottsdale served me a fine pizza.
I know the problem, however. I show people pictures of some of my wonderful Pepe's and Bianco pizzas, and a fraction of people go "eww, terrible, burnt, how can you eat that." They don't get it.
In the end, pizza is like Christianity, with a central tenet, but all sorts of competing secondary dogma.
kaszeta at 1:19PM on 02/24/09
Texas doesn't get it. Quelle surprise.
hmcnally at 2:46PM on 02/24/09
I wouldn't consider 1 pizza from each location much evidence. Based on my experience eating Grimaldi's pizzas (which is statistically significant, to put it politely), the Brooklyn pie above is overly charred, and, of course, the Houston one is under-charred. But, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the results were reversed for somebody else on different days.
Also, according to some commenter on the original(?) blog: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2009/02/all_grimaldis_pizzas_are_not_c.php, the Houston location is brand new. That amplifies the consistency issue .
"And they have learned through experience that folks out West don't see the attraction of a charred pizza crust." That deserves a [citation needed].
Don't quote me on any of the following, I could be wrong, but, as for licensing the name, that's not really the case. All the Grimaldi's locations except 1 are owned by the same family - it's just not the Grimaldi family. Patsy and his original partner still own 1 of the Grimaldi's Pizzerias - the Hoboken one. The other family bought the Brooklyn location back when there were only Brooklyn and Hoboken, and have opened all the other ones since then (except that Floyd Bennett Field place).
pizzalogist at 3:55PM on 02/24/09
I'll also add that I've eaten numerous times at various Arizona locations (mostly for lunch - that way I'm not starving to death while I wait for Bianco to open), and I've gotten quite a range of charredness.
OK, I'll stop talking about consistency. For a little while.
pizzalogist at 4:03PM on 02/24/09
We're seeing the same sort of thing with the imported oven at A Good Pie here in St. Louis. Not only do we hear the "it's got black spots, so it's burnt", but we also get complaints that it's not so crisp it sticks out without any support from underneath. (This the result of St. Louis' affection for pizza that's derisively called Cheez Whiz on a cracker.)
lemons at 5:17PM on 02/24/09
I've eaten numerous times at the Grimaldi's in Dallas' West Village and the one in Allen. I was really excited for them to open - but so disappointed practically every time I've been there. Granted they are still relatively new and it's not like they have lifelong pizzaiolos running the ovens - but overall the pizzas they turn out are pretty "meh". I can't imagine these are they same pies as the original in NY...these locations are CLEARLY chains - from the decor to the menus on placemats (complete with supplier logos...thank you "hormel"!) it is totally formulaic. Generally the pizzas are cooked to death - dry - with no char which means the ovens aren't hot enough. Most of these locations are in the suburbs and there are a lot of NY transplants in Dallas, but the suburbs don't seem to have a sophisticated palate and prefer a cardboard crust as a topping delivery device only. Over seasoned over cooked. Coal Vines in Dallas does a much better job of NY Style Pizza and Olivella's does a great Neapolitan. Sad but true - many Texans just don't get a good "char" or fior di latte...and god forbid you should actually taste a San Marzano tomato instead of a mouthful of dried oregano. I have pics of various pizzas on flickr at www.flickr.com/photos/canerosso/sets
canerosso at 5:40PM on 02/24/09
Here is a better link to pics in and around Texas...there are some good ones and we are not all hicks or evil chains:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=103380&id=584065379&l=7278c
canerosso at 5:52PM on 02/24/09
Thanks for the intel, Canerosso! And for the links to those pictures. They look great.
Agree with you on the chain thing. Chains typically blow.
Adam Kuban at 5:58PM on 02/24/09
Did someone say there's a Grimaldi's in Floyd Bennett Field?!?!?!?!
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 10:00PM on 02/24/09
Is the burnt crust deal similar to India Pale Ale winning the Beer Cup ever year?
Everybody seems to think that IPAs are the best, even though they taste like ink. Everybody also seems to think that pizza crust isn't any good unless it is burnt?
Seems crazy.
Mooner at 10:02PM on 02/24/09
Mooner: New York pizza hounds like the charred-just-right crust. We've written about this on Slice for years.
Adam Kuban at 10:12PM on 02/24/09
I've been to the one in Allen and I love it. They do burn the pizza a little more there being that most of the people that live in the Allen/Plano/McKinney area are mostly from the North East. It's pretty damn close to NYC pizza.
Also for good jersey pizza, I go to a place in Plano called Joes Pizza at the Tollway and W Parker Rd. Fresh garlic, well done..... amazing.
dozertx at 9:16AM on 02/25/09
Maybe it was a one off, but when I made a special trip to Grimaldi's Brooklyn location in 2006, though a great pizza by the standards I am used to in the Bahamas, I am sure the crust more closely resembled that Texan upskirt.
MarkBahama at 10:42AM on 02/25/09
Just went to Vegas' Grimaldi's in January, the bottom of the crust is definitely blacker than the pix from Houston's branch.
A gentleman (perhaps tourist?) actually asked the staff to send the pizza back into the coal oven for more brownage. Not a bad pie at all!
SinoSoul at 12:59PM on 02/25/09
pizza plebeians!
egadman at 2:33PM on 02/25/09
What can one expect from the Death Penalty State. Perhaps Texas Grimaldi's should let the customers shoot the "burnt" pizza before they send it back, you know, as a marketing gimmick. Now, maybe if they were still using "the chair", charred wouldn't seem so, you know, alien.
Summerfield at 5:40PM on 02/25/09
@Summerfield: Come on. Let's try to keep politics out of it. We try not to go there on Slice. Thx.
Adam Kuban at 5:56PM on 02/25/09
THe one the left looks better. Nto because of the char, but look at the cheese. It's just ozzing with goodness, or so it would seem. I think that's one thing that N.Y. pizaa has over a lot of places. Fresh cheese.
I prefer the char myself, and am disappointed that my local shop in Va. (Dino's Pizza Shop) stopped doing it unless requested. Sadly they aren't coal-fired pizzas, but they still make some of the best pizza I have ever had south of northern N.J.
Raiders757 at 7:08PM on 02/25/09
@Adam I did a search on Obama. Got 20 hits.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 7:21PM on 02/25/09
Guess I am not surprised.. I grew up on the east coast and when I got to Austin in '83, there was not a decent pie in sight.. We have a few but people are, well, strange about their food.. mark miller, well known and respected, open a restaurant here in Austin.. It did not do well because the food was too spicy!!!!! WTF... So it does not surprise me that they don't really care for the goods.. All hat and no cattle.. kind of like whats his name, the yale graduate who was our last prez..
SavageBeast at 8:33PM on 02/25/09
Artuoro's on West Houston St. in the village (NYC) has the better coal oven pizza than Grimaldi's in Hoboken.
Just my opinion!
Stacey Snacks at 11:09PM on 02/25/09
We have one of these Grimaldi's in Las Vegas, they do char their pizza. They are alittle inconsistant, but overall its by far the best NY style pizza in Vegas, and it is comparable to the top NY pizzas anywhere. I've heard people say they liked it better than the one in Brooklyn. Go figure. Easily the 2nd best overall pizza in Vegas outside of "Settebello" which is one of the premier Neapolitan style places in the US.
othafa9 at 11:58PM on 02/25/09
We have one of these Grimaldi's in Las Vegas, they do char their pizza. They are alittle inconsistant, but overall its by far the best NY style pizza in Vegas, and it is comparable to the top NY pizzas anywhere. I've heard people say they liked it better than the one in Brooklyn. Go figure. Easily the 2nd best overall pizza in Vegas outside of "Settebello" which is one of the premier Neapolitan style places in the US.
othafa9 at 11:59PM on 02/25/09
@Adam Kuban: I was striving for humor. You know, charred humor. Apparently I failed. Well, I think it's funny.
Summerfield at 6:21PM on 02/26/09
@Paulie: You got me. It's true.
@Summerfield: Apologies. I am sorry. I went there myself. Sorry about not catching your charred humor. You know humor in print. Sometimes doesn't translate. About half of what I write doesn't. :/
Adam Kuban at 6:34PM on 02/26/09
It might just be me, but the Texas pizza's crust looks significantly thicker than that of the Brooklyn pie (both in the picture and personal experience). With a scorching coal oven, a thick crust would take longer to cook and be overly charred-even by NY standards. NY pies are, in general, a thinner crust (like those in Italy, especially Southern Italy and Napoli) and a crisper experience than that of pies I've had in the rest of the country. Perhaps if the franchises thinned out the crust, more non-New Yorkers would 'get it'!
Also, the Brooklyn pie has more of an 'artisan' look to it than the Texas pie; redder tomato, not spread in a thin layer over the entirety of the pie, with a better contrast to the mozzarella.
restaurantveteran at 5:40AM on 02/27/09
Dull blond? While I do enjoy the charred crust, I think there is something to be said for the blond crust. It packs just as much flavor as the charred.
tonecapo at 10:28AM on 02/27/09
it should come as no surprise that the various outposts of grimaldi's are inconsistent when you consider that the original brooklyn one (cadmen plaza, not floyd bennett) is pretty widely known for inconsistency and undercooking their pizzas.
sloppy at 11:12AM on 02/27/09
@Adam: Thanks. I knew you'd understand. But, back to pizza. I guess the trick to charring is to not dry out the top of the pizza. One of the Tomatoes Apizza stores up here in Detroit Metro has a coal-fired oven. I went there a while back and, while his (Mike Weinstein's) cheese pizza was beautifully charred, he dried out his top a bit, which was a detraction.
Summerfield at 2:03PM on 02/27/09
Long after this post I have to say that I love my pizza charred and I'm a native Texan that still lives in Texas. Target markets are important to please in order for a business to succeed, but let's not categorize the tastes of the entire state's population.
Hobsy at 10:21AM on 07/22/09
Hobsy: Good point!
Adam Kuban at 10:34AM on 07/22/09