Posted by Adam Kuban, February 18, 2009 at 1:45 PM
Last week, Kenji Alt of the blog Goodeater (and a writer for Cook's Illustrated) sent me a cross-section photo of a slice of pizza he had made in his kitchen with the promise that he'd soon reveal a new method of achieving brick-oven-like pizza at home.
After taking us through the three different ways food can cook (via conduction, convection, or radiation) and explaining clearly how they each apply to pizza, Kenji reveals his plan for cooking both the top and bottom of a pizza at high enough heat to really get the job done. He says, "Of course, nobody ever said that the top and the bottom actually need to cook at the same time, right?"
He'd first have you cook the top of your pie under the broiler in your oven and then cook the bottom by creating a sort of indoor grill above the burner of your gas range.
A warning from Kenji: "... you'll have to constantly rotate and fiddle with the pizza as it cooks in order to get it to char evenly. I never said this method was particularly easy."
I did use the silpat, and probably shouldn't have, but I was out of foil that day, and my old beat up sheet pan is way too scratched up to risk raw pizza dough sticking to it...
Silpat seemed to come off no worse for wear, but maybe I'm now going to get cancer a few minutes earlier than I would have otherwise...
I like to use a round flat bread and a cast iron skillet and cook the pizza from the bottom up, on the stove top. The heat melts the cheese through the bread but makes a crispy bottom.
@chc82
I tried it both ways, and it actually doesn't work if you put the pizza on the grill first (at least it's more difficult), because proper pizza dough is so delicate. It ended up sagging a bit through the holes in the grates, making it very hard to rotate and lift off. When you start it under the hot broiler, the whole thing firms up a bit since the top of the dough is cooked, so you don't get the same sagging problem.
My pizza stone works great for me too, but my oven goes up to nearly 600* so that may be why. I also like to leave as much other stuff in the oven (roasting pans and sheets etc) as can fit along with whatever I'm cooking, I find that it helps even the heat out and keeps it from dipping rapidly when I open and close the door. Maybe that helps increase the thermal mass you say is necessary...
@kitchenhacker: Kenji has more expertise and could probably answer your questions better, but I'll give it a go.
1.) Looks like Kenji has a gas oven. That would preclude using the heating elements in the oven instead of the stove top. Maybe people with electric ovens could try that method.
2.) If you use a pizza stone to cook the bottom, you're going to get the convection and radiant heat cooking the top at the same time. I think Kenji's hack was to isolate the cooking of the bottom and top.
With the pizza stone method, I was thinking of using the pizza stone (preheated) under the broiler - so the stone takes care of the bottom while the broiler handles the top.
kitchenhacker: It's been my experience that a "superheated" pizza stone cracks. Blake wrote about it here: http://www.thepauperedchef.com/2008/01/a-night-of-pizz.html
And I've also had a pizza stone that cracked when it was left underneath a broiler for too long. It can easily hang out in a 500 degree oven. But if you want to raise the temperature any higher it needs to go under broiler. And that hasn't worked for me. Maybe Blake and I both had cheap pizza stones.
in regards to oven heating elements - it may work, but as adam pointed out, I have a gas oven that heats from the bottom, so no broiler. Many electric ovens also have elements in different positions (in the back or on top), which wouldn't allow people to use that method. I'd also think it'd be very difficult to find an appropriate rack to cook your pizza on (leaving it on a tray or in a pan conducts the heat to eht base of the dough in the wrong way).'
As for the pizza stone, I've experimented with pizza stones for a while and find that you can't get them hot enough to work properly. I suppose if you spring for a really high quality stone and heat it very carefully, you can do it without breaking, but that requires a hefty investment. The beauty of this method is that you don't need any special equipment at all, just a bit of practice.
My oven only has a top element and I set it on the high broil setting (which I'm guessing is about 550-600). So far with the stone, placed in the middle of the oven, I've had some pretty good luck. I've tried placing it higher, but I because of the heating element being above, the tops of my pizzas would cook faster than the bottom and I'd end up with a burnt edge and caramelized cheese and a blonde bottom.
With the stone at mid-level, I used to have a kind of double-bake process where I'd bake the crust with the sauce first, just til it's blonde, then top it with the cheese, etc. As I found that because of the length of time my pizzas were in the oven (5-8 minutes), the cheese would burn before the crust was done. I remedied this by just placing larger, but fewer hunks of mozz.
I also found that by placing some tin foil on my other oven tray and putting it in the slot below my stone, I was able to essentially create a smaller oven space, which seems to help my stone retain or replenish its heat more quickly for quicker bake times and less wait between pies. As it is, I'm able to get a decent pie done in 4-5 minutes when my stone has absorbed its max amount of heat.
@egadman-I recently bought a new range which has a much bigger oven than my old range. I have discovered that my pizzas take longer to cook, even though the oven has a higher temp than my old oven. I finally figured out that the larger oven spread the heat to much, and I was better off with the small oven for more concentrated heat. Your foil technique may be the answer to my problems.Thanks!
What about going in the other direction. Makeshift grill first to get the bottom cooked. Then less chance of sticking when you broil...regardless of the surface you put it on. Also, the toppings will be nice and hot when you are done...
It doesn't work so well that way because the dough is too soft at the beginning. Good pizza dough has a pretty high moisture content, so when you put it on the grill, it starts to droop between the grates and becomes very hard to remove without tearing. The broiler helps the dough set up just enough that it doesn't droop when you put it on the grill.
I've never had a problem with cold toppings (after all, it only stays in each location for a couple of minutes), but I suppose you could give it a really quick second flash under the broiler right before serving.
Regarding pizza stones cracking at high heat, it's a probably a problem with the quality of the stone, which is generally poor most places you find. Before I moved to NYC and lost my backyard, I used to cook pizza on my grill using over lump charcoal (temps would get over 700, which is as high as my thermometer would read). I used a stone made for my grill, a big green egg (you can probably find the stone in the accessories section on their website, www.biggreenegg.com). It was significantly thicker and heavier than any I've had before and could handle the high heat. I still use the stone in my current oven (highest heat only 550, ugh!) and have had no problems in 6+ years of grilling and oven baking. I really miss grilling pizza though--the high heat of lump charcoal was as close as I could get to a coal fired pizza from a good pizzeria.
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Last week, Kenji Alt of the blog Goodeater (and a writer for Cook's Illustrated) sent me a cross-section photo of a slice of pizza he had made in his kitchen with the promise that he'd soon reveal a new method of achieving brick-oven-like pizza at home.
28 Comments:
Ahhh, been waiting for him to post this on the Goodeater.
A question about the broiling segment of the process, if Mr. Alt checks in here: were you using the silpat? can they take that kind of heat?
Looks like you did, but I can't really tell in the picture if it is still on the silpat when you have it under the broiler.
really great post.
thanks.
intheyearofthepig at 2:13PM on 02/18/09
I did use the silpat, and probably shouldn't have, but I was out of foil that day, and my old beat up sheet pan is way too scratched up to risk raw pizza dough sticking to it...
Silpat seemed to come off no worse for wear, but maybe I'm now going to get cancer a few minutes earlier than I would have otherwise...
Kenji
GoodEaterKenji at 2:36PM on 02/18/09
A pizza stone in a rippin' hot oven still works for me.
dmcavanagh at 2:47PM on 02/18/09
I like to use a round flat bread and a cast iron skillet and cook the pizza from the bottom up, on the stove top. The heat melts the cheese through the bread but makes a crispy bottom.
Charlie Fogg at 3:11PM on 02/18/09
Ridiculous.
grampart at 3:30PM on 02/18/09
ridiculously awesome.
intheyearofthepig at 6:16PM on 02/18/09
Awesomely ridiculous.
grampart at 6:25PM on 02/18/09
It seems like it'd be easier to cook the bottom first then the top. I think I'll try it on my gas grill and then throw it under the broiler to finish.
chc82 at 9:48PM on 02/18/09
@chc82
I tried it both ways, and it actually doesn't work if you put the pizza on the grill first (at least it's more difficult), because proper pizza dough is so delicate. It ended up sagging a bit through the holes in the grates, making it very hard to rotate and lift off. When you start it under the hot broiler, the whole thing firms up a bit since the top of the dough is cooked, so you don't get the same sagging problem.
GoodEaterKenji at 9:17AM on 02/19/09
My pizza stone works great for me too, but my oven goes up to nearly 600* so that may be why. I also like to leave as much other stuff in the oven (roasting pans and sheets etc) as can fit along with whatever I'm cooking, I find that it helps even the heat out and keeps it from dipping rapidly when I open and close the door. Maybe that helps increase the thermal mass you say is necessary...
simon at 12:02PM on 02/19/09
Some alternatives (more details here):
What about using the oven heating elements (as a sort of reverse-broiler) instead of the stove top?
Alernately, why not use a pizza stone to cook the bottom and the broiler to cook the top?
kitchenhacker at 2:20PM on 02/19/09
@kitchenhacker: Kenji has more expertise and could probably answer your questions better, but I'll give it a go.
1.) Looks like Kenji has a gas oven. That would preclude using the heating elements in the oven instead of the stove top. Maybe people with electric ovens could try that method.
2.) If you use a pizza stone to cook the bottom, you're going to get the convection and radiant heat cooking the top at the same time. I think Kenji's hack was to isolate the cooking of the bottom and top.
Adam Kuban at 2:31PM on 02/19/09
Adam,
With the pizza stone method, I was thinking of using the pizza stone (preheated) under the broiler - so the stone takes care of the bottom while the broiler handles the top.
kitchenhacker at 3:11PM on 02/19/09
kitchenhacker: It's been my experience that a "superheated" pizza stone cracks. Blake wrote about it here:
http://www.thepauperedchef.com/2008/01/a-night-of-pizz.html
And I've also had a pizza stone that cracked when it was left underneath a broiler for too long. It can easily hang out in a 500 degree oven. But if you want to raise the temperature any higher it needs to go under broiler. And that hasn't worked for me. Maybe Blake and I both had cheap pizza stones.
Btw, I'm insanely curious about this technique...
Pauper Nick at 6:47PM on 02/19/09
@kitchenhacker
in regards to oven heating elements - it may work, but as adam pointed out, I have a gas oven that heats from the bottom, so no broiler. Many electric ovens also have elements in different positions (in the back or on top), which wouldn't allow people to use that method. I'd also think it'd be very difficult to find an appropriate rack to cook your pizza on (leaving it on a tray or in a pan conducts the heat to eht base of the dough in the wrong way).'
As for the pizza stone, I've experimented with pizza stones for a while and find that you can't get them hot enough to work properly. I suppose if you spring for a really high quality stone and heat it very carefully, you can do it without breaking, but that requires a hefty investment. The beauty of this method is that you don't need any special equipment at all, just a bit of practice.
GoodEaterKenji at 6:54PM on 02/19/09
@Kenji - I appreciate that... but, as I am stuck with an electric stove at the moment, I'm adapting as I can.
kitchenhacker at 7:12PM on 02/19/09
Good luck - let me know how it goes.
Just checked out your site, by the way - great concept!
GoodEaterKenji at 7:32PM on 02/19/09
Thanks! (I'm still working to find my voice, but it's coming along)
kitchenhacker at 1:13AM on 02/20/09
My oven only has a top element and I set it on the high broil setting (which I'm guessing is about 550-600). So far with the stone, placed in the middle of the oven, I've had some pretty good luck. I've tried placing it higher, but I because of the heating element being above, the tops of my pizzas would cook faster than the bottom and I'd end up with a burnt edge and caramelized cheese and a blonde bottom.
With the stone at mid-level, I used to have a kind of double-bake process where I'd bake the crust with the sauce first, just til it's blonde, then top it with the cheese, etc. As I found that because of the length of time my pizzas were in the oven (5-8 minutes), the cheese would burn before the crust was done. I remedied this by just placing larger, but fewer hunks of mozz.
I also found that by placing some tin foil on my other oven tray and putting it in the slot below my stone, I was able to essentially create a smaller oven space, which seems to help my stone retain or replenish its heat more quickly for quicker bake times and less wait between pies. As it is, I'm able to get a decent pie done in 4-5 minutes when my stone has absorbed its max amount of heat.
You can see the results here: http://egadman.blogspot.com/search?q=pizza
It's certainly not ideal, but i still like to claim status as the 3rd best pizza in PDX.
egadman at 6:40PM on 02/20/09
@egadman-I recently bought a new range which has a much bigger oven than my old range. I have discovered that my pizzas take longer to cook, even though the oven has a higher temp than my old oven. I finally figured out that the larger oven spread the heat to much, and I was better off with the small oven for more concentrated heat. Your foil technique may be the answer to my problems.Thanks!
dmcavanagh at 10:16PM on 02/20/09
I think everyone should get one of these:
http://www.mithiko.cz/en/video-mithiko-pizza/
Didn't know Christopher Walken was into selling pizza ovens, did ya?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 12:16AM on 02/22/09
Those Czech's really know their pizza!
dmcavanagh at 9:25AM on 02/22/09
You gotta admit, that's a good lookin' pie that came out of that thing at the end. The question is, did it really come out of there.
If you don't like the way the CW look-a-like was dubbed into English in that video, here's a more interesting accent I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVrBx5TZ0zk
And BTW, I tried that salad bowl method once and it worked very well.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 1:11PM on 02/22/09
I'd love to give it a test run. That dough recipe must be exacting to get that technique to work for anyone.
dmcavanagh at 1:35PM on 02/22/09
What about going in the other direction. Makeshift grill first to get the bottom cooked. Then less chance of sticking when you broil...regardless of the surface you put it on. Also, the toppings will be nice and hot when you are done...
wunami at 6:24PM on 02/22/09
@wunami
It doesn't work so well that way because the dough is too soft at the beginning. Good pizza dough has a pretty high moisture content, so when you put it on the grill, it starts to droop between the grates and becomes very hard to remove without tearing. The broiler helps the dough set up just enough that it doesn't droop when you put it on the grill.
I've never had a problem with cold toppings (after all, it only stays in each location for a couple of minutes), but I suppose you could give it a really quick second flash under the broiler right before serving.
GoodEaterKenji at 11:02AM on 02/23/09
Randomly Audacious.
Mooner at 10:33PM on 02/23/09
Regarding pizza stones cracking at high heat, it's a probably a problem with the quality of the stone, which is generally poor most places you find. Before I moved to NYC and lost my backyard, I used to cook pizza on my grill using over lump charcoal (temps would get over 700, which is as high as my thermometer would read). I used a stone made for my grill, a big green egg (you can probably find the stone in the accessories section on their website, www.biggreenegg.com). It was significantly thicker and heavier than any I've had before and could handle the high heat. I still use the stone in my current oven (highest heat only 550, ugh!) and have had no problems in 6+ years of grilling and oven baking. I really miss grilling pizza though--the high heat of lump charcoal was as close as I could get to a coal fired pizza from a good pizzeria.
arong at 11:58AM on 02/25/09