Clicking in to the Slice inbox today, we've got a great piece of pizza TV intel from Tony Muia, the proprietor of the Slice of Brooklyn Pizza Tour.
I just wanted to give you a heads-up about an episode I taped for the Food Network's Food Detectives, hosted by Ted Allen. The episode tried to disprove the idea that NYC water is what makes NYC pizza so great. They had John LaFemina, the chef from Apizz in Manhattan, make dough with water from NYC, Chicago, and L.A. I was one of the judges, along with Mario Cantone, Joey Ciolli from Grimaldi's in Arizona and John, the chef at Apizz.
It's interesting to note that Joey Ciolli actually has a machine at the Grimaldi's in Chandler, Arizona, which I've seen, that turns Arizona water into NYC water. He actually talks about it in the episode.
The problem is that the show aired last night at 9 p.m. and then at midnight, but the Food Network didn't bother to tell any of us who were on the show. Some of us saw it and some of us didn't. Anyway, they're repeating it again this coming Sunday at 4 p.m. on the Food Network, so keep an eye out for it.
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Tony,
Thanks for the heads-up on this episode. Food Network is REALLY BAD about letting people know what shows are new. I think because most of its stuff is rerun. They don't want to highlight what's new for fear of exposing how little of it is actually first-run on any given day.
Anyway, I'm sorry I missed this, but at least you can always count on the repeats.
Hasta la pizza,
Adam
------------------------------------------------------------
The first time Mario Cantone has ever been interested in an upskirt.
So, you got that, pizzafaces? This Sunday, April 19, at 4 p.m.Food Detectives investigates the claim that it's the water that makes NYC pizza so great.
Longtime readers know that I don't put any stock in this notion. There are plenty of bad pizzerias here using NYC tap water and plenty of good pizzerias elsewhere that don't.
At the risk of broken-record-playing here, my take is that the great pizza to be found here in New York has more to do with the fact that there's plenty of competition keeping the excellent pizza-makers on their toes—along with a discerning and demanding eater-base that doesn't brook subpar bullshit.
I saw it....won't say what happened....after watching Ted Allen as a judge for many years now I always wanted him to have his own show. Now he's got two, Food Detectives and Chopped, I wasn't a huge fan of either at first but they are starting to grow on me. I still like him but I feel like both shows have a lot of staged qualities. I know this post was about the NYC water but I don't want to spoil anything.
They all picked the same pizza. After the first person made their choice, the second said 'uhh yeah, I agree' and so it went down the line. I don't think it had anything to do with the water, more likely minor differences in how the pizza was made, or simple parroting by the 'judges.' The test was so full of flaws anyway, there's no way it could be taken as scientific in a million years.
@ratbuddy: I haven't seen it yet, but that sounds like what happens too often in food-judging events that don't have solid protocol set up and agreed upon beforehand. It used to happen here in the SE/Slice office, too. We had to tell Ed to stop talking about what he was tasting as he tasted it so that he didn't influence anyone else tasting the samples.
The best one I've seen was one I judged on for a pizza contest. The people running it—PMQ magazine—had done many, many pizza-judging events, so they had scorecards and laid out the deal—no conferring beforehand. That worked well. Other less-organized deals are in danger of coming under the sway of an especially vocal or knowledgeable-seeming judge.
They actually used a blind-judging system and were pretty organized, but I knew all the places from sight. They were all so different and distinct that it was easy to figure out which was which. DeMarco's (now closed) won.
I did a Best of Long Island Pizza contest once (my first such event), and it didn't really stipulate much. So the judges talked a lot and things seemed to get a bit skewed. Also, the judges were just weird and random, like some radio DJs, the stars of a Tony & Tina's Wedding production somewhere on Long Island, and Miss Long Island. Not necessarily pizza experts or food people. But that's not always a bad thing. In the end, most people can judge good pizza. The radio guys were very vocal, though, and I think skewed things.
At the PMQ thing, we were told not to really discuss the pizzas, but after a while, it started happening. In that case, though, they had really bothered to get some real pizza people in, and I think the opinions were pretty uniform. We were all a little puzzled by all the weird-ass toppings coming through. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2007/03/judging_in_the_americas_plate_pizza_competition.html
ratbuddy - I agree to an extent and thought the same when I saw it, except for the fact that these are egotistical food industry types who actually love to disagree. On Iron Chef, Chopped, or anything with multiple judges, each person wants their voice heard and has no problem contradicting another judge and making their point. Even more so if you asked any of those judges "What's your favorite pizza place", you'd get 4 different answers and a heated discussion. Definitely nowhere near a scientific study but at least the chef was blind to which water he used so he couldn't bias the tasting.
And I don't want to get into the issue too much with you Adam, as it's been overdone, but I disagree with what you say and do think water has an effect. "there are plenty of bad pizzerias using NY tap water" is a moot point, bad pizza is bad anywhere. The point is that *all things being equal* we have seen time and time again a skilled NY pizza master unable to duplicate the same recipe in other parts of the country. We hear that often, in fact.
anyone who knows anything about baking, knows that water has little to do with the end result, unless you're using really crappy water. it's similiar with beer. the main difference is the different salt and nutrient levels of each. if you really want to, you can replicate any water in the world. it's still one of those stupid arguments about why this is better than that. if you look closer at the situation you'll find that any average establishment in nyc for example has more experience with taste and baking than some pizza shop in nebraska. that is the real difference.
@pizzaexpert, that reminds me. Papa Johns (who went out of business up here in Hartford a while ago) is advertising their cheese as "with cheese made from 100% mozzarella!"
Made from 100% mozzarella? What the hell else is in there??
You would be surprised at what some processed cheese brands pass off as mozzarella.
I watched the episode, and ended up ordering a large pizza from a local joint that is about as close as I can get to N.Y. pizza. It's damn good though, and has been around since I was a child.
One thing I don't like about Food Detectives, is that it seems nothing they do on that show, is done in a way that ultimately proves anything. There is always a hole in their "scientific methods", and most of the time I feel like they haven't proven a thing.
I've read that Brooklyn and Queens get their water from a different source than the Bronx and Manhattan. Joe Vitale of Bleeker St renown is making great pizza here in Santa Monica and he told me the water has nothing to do with it. Good for arguing though.
'The point is that *all things being equal* we have seen time and time again a skilled NY pizza master unable to duplicate the same recipe in other parts of the country. We hear that often, in fact.'
Do we? I must be getting senile. I can't really even remember hearing about a skilled NY pizza master even _trying_ to duplicate the same recipe in other parts of the country.
Thanks for commenting! Your comment has been accepted and will appear in a moment.
Add a comment:
Previewing your comment:
HTML Hints
Some HTML is OK: <a href="URL">link</a>, <strong>strong</strong>, <em>em</em>
Comment Guidelines
Post whatever you want, just keep it pleasant. We reserve the right to delete off-topic or inflammatory comments. Learn more at our Comment Policy page.
Print
I just wanted to give you a heads-up about an episode I taped for the Food Network's Food Detectives, hosted by Ted Allen. The episode tried to disprove the idea that NYC water is what makes NYC pizza so great. They had John LaFemina, the chef from Apizz in Manhattan, make dough with water from NYC, Chicago, and L.A. I was one of the judges, along with Mario Cantone, Joey Ciolli from Grimaldi's in Arizona and John, the chef at Apizz.
17 Comments:
I saw it....won't say what happened....after watching Ted Allen as a judge for many years now I always wanted him to have his own show. Now he's got two, Food Detectives and Chopped, I wasn't a huge fan of either at first but they are starting to grow on me. I still like him but I feel like both shows have a lot of staged qualities. I know this post was about the NYC water but I don't want to spoil anything.
bearsilber at 9:16PM on 04/15/09
Meh. They should have made the judges write their answers down so they wouldn't be influenced by the person standing next to them.
ratbuddy at 11:08AM on 04/16/09
Can someone spoil it for those of us who can't catch the show?
fascfoo at 11:10AM on 04/16/09
They all picked the same pizza. After the first person made their choice, the second said 'uhh yeah, I agree' and so it went down the line. I don't think it had anything to do with the water, more likely minor differences in how the pizza was made, or simple parroting by the 'judges.' The test was so full of flaws anyway, there's no way it could be taken as scientific in a million years.
ratbuddy at 12:14PM on 04/16/09
@ratbuddy: I haven't seen it yet, but that sounds like what happens too often in food-judging events that don't have solid protocol set up and agreed upon beforehand. It used to happen here in the SE/Slice office, too. We had to tell Ed to stop talking about what he was tasting as he tasted it so that he didn't influence anyone else tasting the samples.
The best one I've seen was one I judged on for a pizza contest. The people running it—PMQ magazine—had done many, many pizza-judging events, so they had scorecards and laid out the deal—no conferring beforehand. That worked well. Other less-organized deals are in danger of coming under the sway of an especially vocal or knowledgeable-seeming judge.
Adam Kuban at 12:19PM on 04/16/09
What was that newspaper one a while back that you sat in on Adam? Didn't it have skewed results too?
Prairie at 12:27PM on 04/16/09
For Life magazine (in its second or third incarnation; it's now since folded again). http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/11/battle_of_the_boroughs_pizza_contest_1.html
They actually used a blind-judging system and were pretty organized, but I knew all the places from sight. They were all so different and distinct that it was easy to figure out which was which. DeMarco's (now closed) won.
I did a Best of Long Island Pizza contest once (my first such event), and it didn't really stipulate much. So the judges talked a lot and things seemed to get a bit skewed. Also, the judges were just weird and random, like some radio DJs, the stars of a Tony & Tina's Wedding production somewhere on Long Island, and Miss Long Island. Not necessarily pizza experts or food people. But that's not always a bad thing. In the end, most people can judge good pizza. The radio guys were very vocal, though, and I think skewed things.
At the PMQ thing, we were told not to really discuss the pizzas, but after a while, it started happening. In that case, though, they had really bothered to get some real pizza people in, and I think the opinions were pretty uniform. We were all a little puzzled by all the weird-ass toppings coming through. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2007/03/judging_in_the_americas_plate_pizza_competition.html
Adam Kuban at 1:03PM on 04/16/09
ratbuddy - I agree to an extent and thought the same when I saw it, except for the fact that these are egotistical food industry types who actually love to disagree. On Iron Chef, Chopped, or anything with multiple judges, each person wants their voice heard and has no problem contradicting another judge and making their point. Even more so if you asked any of those judges "What's your favorite pizza place", you'd get 4 different answers and a heated discussion. Definitely nowhere near a scientific study but at least the chef was blind to which water he used so he couldn't bias the tasting.
And I don't want to get into the issue too much with you Adam, as it's been overdone, but I disagree with what you say and do think water has an effect. "there are plenty of bad pizzerias using NY tap water" is a moot point, bad pizza is bad anywhere. The point is that *all things being equal* we have seen time and time again a skilled NY pizza master unable to duplicate the same recipe in other parts of the country. We hear that often, in fact.
Big B at 1:16PM on 04/16/09
anyone who knows anything about baking, knows that water has little to do with the end result, unless you're using really crappy water. it's similiar with beer. the main difference is the different salt and nutrient levels of each. if you really want to, you can replicate any water in the world. it's still one of those stupid arguments about why this is better than that. if you look closer at the situation you'll find that any average establishment in nyc for example has more experience with taste and baking than some pizza shop in nebraska. that is the real difference.
moesizlacks at 1:26PM on 04/16/09
@pizzaexpert, that reminds me. Papa Johns (who went out of business up here in Hartford a while ago) is advertising their cheese as "with cheese made from 100% mozzarella!"
Made from 100% mozzarella? What the hell else is in there??
ratbuddy at 4:18PM on 04/16/09
@ ratbuddy
You would be surprised at what some processed cheese brands pass off as mozzarella.
I watched the episode, and ended up ordering a large pizza from a local joint that is about as close as I can get to N.Y. pizza. It's damn good though, and has been around since I was a child.
One thing I don't like about Food Detectives, is that it seems nothing they do on that show, is done in a way that ultimately proves anything. There is always a hole in their "scientific methods", and most of the time I feel like they haven't proven a thing.
Raiders757 at 6:52PM on 04/16/09
@ratbuddy I love the places that display we proudly use grande cheese and you seem them take out a polly-o bag from the fridge!
pizzaexpert at 7:38PM on 04/16/09
Polly-O is really good cheese, regardless.
Prairie at 10:10PM on 04/16/09
I remember reading once that Dom said it wasn't the water. That should end the debate.
Way to be in the pizza elite Tony!
El_Mimbre at 8:33AM on 04/17/09
I've read that Brooklyn and Queens get their water from a different source than the Bronx and Manhattan. Joe Vitale of Bleeker St renown is making great pizza here in Santa Monica and he told me the water has nothing to do with it. Good for arguing though.
L.A. Pizza Maven at 11:29AM on 04/18/09
It's not the water, it's the microscopic burnt brick particles that only appear after 70 years of cooking in the same oven.
:P
Sheesh.
Mooner at 6:18PM on 04/18/09
'The point is that *all things being equal* we have seen time and time again a skilled NY pizza master unable to duplicate the same recipe in other parts of the country. We hear that often, in fact.'
Do we? I must be getting senile. I can't really even remember hearing about a skilled NY pizza master even _trying_ to duplicate the same recipe in other parts of the country.
pizzalogist at 1:23AM on 04/19/09