Admittedly, the previous item I blogged about was a week old*, and in that time Alan Richman has moved on to writing about some old standbys. He posted his thoughts yesterday on Grimaldi's (DUMBO), Patsy's (East Harlem), and Di Fara (Midwood). Again, let's take them in order.
On Grimaldi's:
The oven is just right, but the crusts are merely okay—they have a fresh, bready smell, but to me they’re a little too thick and slightly too soft, somewhat undercooked. The tomato sauce is vibrant and essential, which means the white pizzas are best skipped. These basically consist of soft, melted mozzarella atop soft, bland crusts. I tried a half-dozen pies and by far the best was topped with grated cheese, fresh mozzarella, tomato sauce, and excellent, spicy, thick-cut slices of pepperoni.
Agree or disagree with Richman's Top 25 Pizzas List, but I think he's spot on about Grimaldi's here. [Richman's take on Patsy's and Di Fara, after the jump. ]
On Patsy's (East Harlem):
The pies are so neutral that I found it impossible to get the friends I brought with me to agree on which ones they liked. Crusts are very thin—“paper thin,” according to the menu—and apparently deliberately undercooked. (The one pie I got that might accidentally have been left too long in the oven by far had the best crust.) The plain pie resembles classic New York street pizza, which means it has a smudge of cheese and sauce, so understated that my New Jersey friends complained that it amounted to nothing at all. Ordering your pie with extra cheese and sauce will assure you a pleasing level of gooiness.
Strange. I wonder if Richman ordered the fresh mozzarella pie or the standard aged mozzarella. The last few times I've been, the standard mozzarella pie has been overly cheesy.
On Di Fara, which was one of the more glaring omissions on his Top Pizza list:
The famous thin-crusted pie was crisp and crunchy, not my style, and DeMarco pours on the oil, way too much. The crust on the square pie was rich and heavy; when topped with cheese, tomato sauce, and broccoli rabe, it was enormously filling, like a gooey Italian Sunday dinner on bread.
And, OMG, check out this line: "I have to utter the unspeakable and, I suppose, unforgivable: To me it isn’t among the very best."
*So I got a little behind on my pizza-blogging this last week; sue me.
right, lucali is better than difara and sally's and pepe's... LOL. what a maroon... and the best pizza in america is in chicago. ok buddy. thanx for nothing.
Have to wonder if there's any good pizza in NY anymore after reading his comments...I might as well wallow in the great pizza out West...The biggest shock to me is the seeming decline in the original Grimaldi's...Their Las Vegas branch produced a couple great pies for me, beginning with perfect crust...Maybe theyre right when they say "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"..Im ready to make the drive right now.
I'm glad you posted a picture of Richman so pizzeria owners can blow it up and post it at their doors and not let this guy in. This guy is basically trying to ruin all that is good about pizza in the US. His 25 list was half ludicrous and his focus on crust shows he's not a pizza guy. He should go review bread. We all know a great crust is a great plus (see Bianco) but it shouldn't be your focus when picking pizza's. His pick of Tomato Pie (which is very good btw) in his top 25 showed me he really is not a pizza guy.
On the contrary, the true measure of a great pizza IS the crust, not what you put on it. Anyone can pile on fresh mozzarella, tomatoes, expensive salami, etc., but it's the pizzamaker's skill with the dough that truly separates him or her from the rest of the pack.
That said, please don't think I'm defending Richman. I'm not. His list was a joke, and going to only 10 different cities to research it and then calling those 10 cities the "10 Best Pizza Cities in America" is just insulting.
And I know pizzas (pizza's) shouldn't have and apostrophe but when I read about Patsy's and Lombardi's getting denigrated it makes me forget how to punctuate!
Gotta agree with him on DiFara's thin-crust. It's no better than a dozen other places in NYC. I chuckle at people who go all that way to order a regular slice. It would be like going to L&B and NOT ordering the Sicilian slice. Or going to Beijing and eating a McDonalds.
But the square pie .. oh my god ... its like "Angels giving you a BJ"-good. Sometimes, I order the baby artichokes as a topping. But standalone, the DiFara's square slice beats anything I've had at Pizzeria Mozza or Pizzeria Bianco or any place in New Haven. As a single bite, the first bite of a DiFara square slice is better than anything I've tasted at the French Laundry.
argghh..i wish the difara square didn't use meat sauce because i agree that the round isn't "Angels giving you a BJ" good. this, not bacon, would be the reason i start eating meat.
@pizzancomedy & WikiAdam I think a great pizza experience is a combination of a great crust, great toppings and great atmosphere. It's difficult to find places that do all three well. As much as I love UPN's crust, his toppings leave something to be desired. His space, although a little cold has the feel of a shrine to Pizza Napoletana (saint and all) that I love. Lucali has a great combination of cheeses (better than DiFara, IMO), but I'm not as big a cracker crust fan as many others seem to be. I still can't tear myself away though because of the dramatic and mysterious atmosphere. I love the toppings at Roberta's, but the crust comes up a little short for me. I still love going there though because the atmosphere is so kick ass. Motorino can feel a little too buttoned up, especially in the daytime, but has my favorite pie overall with a killer crust and great toppings. Love going there too. Pizzeria Bianco wooed me with their uniquely appealing crust that is a little snappier than a good Napoletana but not crisp, very good toppings (although pretty standard except for the imaginative and delicious Rosa pie) and a very special atmosphere outside and in Bar Bianco while you wait around for hours getting famished and drunk. I only wish I could have enjoyed the comraderie in the cool of the evening with only his festive lights brightening the area. I love Difara's slice as well as his square (although I've recently discovered that I like the one at Artichoke as much), but I just can't tolerate the cramped unorderly wait (maybe if I brought my own it would make a difference). One thing that I found each and every one of these places have in common are very gracious hosts who make me feel more than welcome. They all seem to thrive on providing their guests with a very special experience.
I take time away from my work responsibilities to write that long and what I tried to make thoughtful comment and you top the whole f**kin' thing with one brilliant little phrase.
@paulie -- while i'd love to take credit for that one i borrowed it from the cgorange post directly above mine.
good write up, though. i definitely put crust ahead of atmosphere and toppings but i know that it's just my personal preference and i can see where you're coming from.
by the way, you should check out toby's if you haven't already. i was pleasantly surprised by the pizza and the ambiance (and the relatively cheap beer).
@cgorange Sorry about that. All kudos go to you on that one. And my comment regarding the Artichoke square was for you. Have you had it? If so, do you think it compares? It's been a while since I had the Dominic's version. Perhaps my memory fails me.
@sloppy Thanks for pointing that out. And thanks for the compliment. As far as crust over atmosphere goes, I would typically agree with you but since the toppings at Roberta's are so good it makes it all worthwhile to me. And at Lucali, in addition to the great cheese combination he laces his pies with, he makes a killer calzone. Even if I do have to go to the corner deli and buy the ham myself. I like Toby's a lot although I've only been there once. I plan on going back now that I'm in the midst of a serious beer research effort. I took some shots there before the Dylan concert in Prospect Park last Summer, but I can't get you a link right now because flickr is blocked here at work. They used to block Slice, but no more. There must be a God.
@pizzancomedy Don't you wish you can go back and edit your post when you f**k up. And while we're on the subject, anyone out there pining for a mobile version of Slice similar to what is available for Serious Eats?
@Paulie: I'd love to do a mobile version—but I think I'd almost need two versions ... one that was strictly posts, like the Serious Eats one. And another that was a simple pizza guide sortable by location and/or rating.
@Slicemeister I think you're right. And of course you'd improve upon the strictly posts version to allow adding comments. And editing for when we f**k up.
LAPizzaMaven.....I agree with you. We went to the OG Grimaldis in Brooklyn a few years ago and it was good.....just not amazingly good. We have been to the Grimaldis in Vegas a few times and it was better. Perfect char, perfect crust, everything about the pizza was awesome in Vegas.
I agree atmosphere can enhance the experience of visiting a pizzeria, and yes great pizza can definitely be about more than just the pizza itself, but I can't taste atmosphere. And to me you simply cannot have a great pizza without great crust and great toppings and without a balance between the crust, sauce, cheese and other toppings.
As far as DiFara's, I have not been yet, but am going very soon. I'd be surprised if his pizza is indeed what I would personally call great, given his penchent for fermenting his dough for only 1-2 hours (which is not nearly enough time to develop the more complex flavors from fermentation by-products which help to make a great crust), but I am very much looking forward to watching him in person!
@pizzablogger I've never been much of a beer drinker and I want to learn more about different types of brews (lagers, ales, etc) so I've been doing a lot of sampling. As far as crust and toppings go I agreee wholeheartedly. I just like to enjoy it in a place that has great atmosphere as well. I don't know about my crust, but I'm heading home right now for a rare weeknight pizza tasting. If nothing else, my Limoncello should make for some killer atmosphere. GTG.
@ PGee: my natural yeast poolish was rocking after a 12 hour room temperature rise on Saturday night followed by another feeding and a 4 hour rise at 85°F on Sunday afternoon....creamy, rocky headed, craggy, nappy goodness! The dough balls have been cold proofing for 2 days now and look ready to go......I'll be firing the oven (my pizza stones lack the atmosphere of a brick oven, damn you!) tonight as well.
Beer is something definitely in my wheel-house, so to speak. I've worked in a home brew shop for a few years and have been a "beer snob" for 20 years now. BTW, many pale ales go very well with pizza, as I'm sure you have discovered. Have you ventured into the treasure trove of styles that is Belgium yet? Enjoy the pizza tasting and tip a limoncello back for me! --PB
"my natural yeast poolish was rocking after a 12 hour room temperature rise on Saturday night followed by another feeding and a 4 hour rise at 85°F on Sunday afternoon....creamy, rocky headed, craggy, nappy goodness! The dough balls have been cold proofing for 2 days now and look ready to go......"
That sounds serious. I've had a packet of starter from Naples sitting and waiting for me to take the plunge. It's been a busy month. Fortunately my current, less complex recipe is serving me well. Last night's highlight was a pie with guanciale and sunnyside eggs. I'll be posting the photo soon.
"I'll be firing the oven (my pizza stones lack the atmosphere of a brick oven, damn you!) tonight as well."
What's stopping you from buying or building the real deal?
"Beer is something definitely in my wheel-house, so to speak. I've worked in a home brew shop for a few years and have been a "beer snob" for 20 years now. BTW, many pale ales go very well with pizza, as I'm sure you have discovered."
Actually I haven't been sampling much while having pizza. This is my favorite place to do research:
"What's stopping you from buying or building the real deal?"
My inner-city rowhome's "backyard" is not big enough to do so (and is taken up by an old fashioned claw foot tub filled with dirt and planted with rosemary, sage, thyme, lavender, chive and tarragon....not to mention the "Ghetto Bucket Basil"....8 five gallon paint buckets that are my mini forest of basil. I plan on moving in the not too distant future, have been drooling over the Forno Bravo pizza oven plans for several months now and Mrs. Blogger has given the definite two thumbs up to begin construction as soon as I have a home with a little bit of a yard to it.
"as is one from a Cooperstown brewery named Ommagang (pronounced gong)."
Paulie, I definitely recommend taking a tour of Ommegang. That part of NY is beautiful in the fall and the brewery itself is really cool.
@pizzablogger. Forno Bravo is where I got my plans. Free of charge. Don't buy a house unless the garden (sounds better than yard) is big enough. When we were hunting for a house, I would not consider one unless there was ample room for a pool table.
I love Cooperstown in the Fall. I also love going up for induction ceramonies. The best part is watching the Hall of Famers only golf action on The Otesaga's course.
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Admittedly, the previous item I blogged about was a week old*, and in that time Alan Richman has moved on to writing about some old standbys. He posted his thoughts yesterday on Grimaldi's (DUMBO), Patsy's (East Harlem), and Di Fara (Midwood). Again, let's take them in order.
21 Comments:
right, lucali is better than difara and sally's and pepe's... LOL. what a maroon... and the best pizza in america is in chicago. ok buddy. thanx for nothing.
frankbooth at 11:21AM on 06/03/09
Have to wonder if there's any good pizza in NY anymore after reading his comments...I might as well wallow in the great pizza out West...The biggest shock to me is the seeming decline in the original Grimaldi's...Their Las Vegas branch produced a couple great pies for me, beginning with perfect crust...Maybe theyre right when they say "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"..Im ready to make the drive right now.
L.A. Pizza Maven at 11:50AM on 06/03/09
I'm glad you posted a picture of Richman so pizzeria owners can blow it up and post it at their doors and not let this guy in. This guy is basically trying to ruin all that is good about pizza in the US. His 25 list was half ludicrous and his focus on crust shows he's not a pizza guy. He should go review bread. We all know a great crust is a great plus (see Bianco) but it shouldn't be your focus when picking pizza's. His pick of Tomato Pie (which is very good btw) in his top 25 showed me he really is not a pizza guy.
pizzancomedy at 1:50PM on 06/03/09
@pizzancomedy:
On the contrary, the true measure of a great pizza IS the crust, not what you put on it. Anyone can pile on fresh mozzarella, tomatoes, expensive salami, etc., but it's the pizzamaker's skill with the dough that truly separates him or her from the rest of the pack.
That said, please don't think I'm defending Richman. I'm not. His list was a joke, and going to only 10 different cities to research it and then calling those 10 cities the "10 Best Pizza Cities in America" is just insulting.
WikiAdam at 2:07PM on 06/03/09
And I know pizzas (pizza's) shouldn't have and apostrophe but when I read about Patsy's and Lombardi's getting denigrated it makes me forget how to punctuate!
pizzancomedy at 2:08PM on 06/03/09
Gotta agree with him on DiFara's thin-crust. It's no better than a dozen other places in NYC. I chuckle at people who go all that way to order a regular slice. It would be like going to L&B and NOT ordering the Sicilian slice. Or going to Beijing and eating a McDonalds.
But the square pie .. oh my god ... its like "Angels giving you a BJ"-good. Sometimes, I order the baby artichokes as a topping. But standalone, the DiFara's square slice beats anything I've had at Pizzeria Mozza or Pizzeria Bianco or any place in New Haven. As a single bite, the first bite of a DiFara square slice is better than anything I've tasted at the French Laundry.
cgorange at 2:19PM on 06/03/09
argghh..i wish the difara square didn't use meat sauce because i agree that the round isn't "Angels giving you a BJ" good. this, not bacon, would be the reason i start eating meat.
sloppy at 2:53PM on 06/03/09
@pizzancomedy & WikiAdam I think a great pizza experience is a combination of a great crust, great toppings and great atmosphere. It's difficult to find places that do all three well. As much as I love UPN's crust, his toppings leave something to be desired. His space, although a little cold has the feel of a shrine to Pizza Napoletana (saint and all) that I love. Lucali has a great combination of cheeses (better than DiFara, IMO), but I'm not as big a cracker crust fan as many others seem to be. I still can't tear myself away though because of the dramatic and mysterious atmosphere. I love the toppings at Roberta's, but the crust comes up a little short for me. I still love going there though because the atmosphere is so kick ass. Motorino can feel a little too buttoned up, especially in the daytime, but has my favorite pie overall with a killer crust and great toppings. Love going there too. Pizzeria Bianco wooed me with their uniquely appealing crust that is a little snappier than a good Napoletana but not crisp, very good toppings (although pretty standard except for the imaginative and delicious Rosa pie) and a very special atmosphere outside and in Bar Bianco while you wait around for hours getting famished and drunk. I only wish I could have enjoyed the comraderie in the cool of the evening with only his festive lights brightening the area. I love Difara's slice as well as his square (although I've recently discovered that I like the one at Artichoke as much), but I just can't tolerate the cramped unorderly wait (maybe if I brought my own it would make a difference). One thing that I found each and every one of these places have in common are very gracious hosts who make me feel more than welcome. They all seem to thrive on providing their guests with a very special experience.
Now back to work.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 3:35PM on 06/03/09
@sloppy "'...'angels giving you a BJ' good."
I take time away from my work responsibilities to write that long and what I tried to make thoughtful comment and you top the whole f**kin' thing with one brilliant little phrase.
Kudos,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 4:04PM on 06/03/09
@paulie -- while i'd love to take credit for that one i borrowed it from the cgorange post directly above mine.
good write up, though. i definitely put crust ahead of atmosphere and toppings but i know that it's just my personal preference and i can see where you're coming from.
by the way, you should check out toby's if you haven't already. i was pleasantly surprised by the pizza and the ambiance (and the relatively cheap beer).
sloppy at 4:30PM on 06/03/09
@cgorange Sorry about that. All kudos go to you on that one. And my comment regarding the Artichoke square was for you. Have you had it? If so, do you think it compares? It's been a while since I had the Dominic's version. Perhaps my memory fails me.
@sloppy Thanks for pointing that out. And thanks for the compliment. As far as crust over atmosphere goes, I would typically agree with you but since the toppings at Roberta's are so good it makes it all worthwhile to me. And at Lucali, in addition to the great cheese combination he laces his pies with, he makes a killer calzone. Even if I do have to go to the corner deli and buy the ham myself. I like Toby's a lot although I've only been there once. I plan on going back now that I'm in the midst of a serious beer research effort. I took some shots there before the Dylan concert in Prospect Park last Summer, but I can't get you a link right now because flickr is blocked here at work. They used to block Slice, but no more. There must be a God.
@pizzancomedy Don't you wish you can go back and edit your post when you f**k up. And while we're on the subject, anyone out there pining for a mobile version of Slice similar to what is available for Serious Eats?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 5:28PM on 06/03/09
@Paulie: I'd love to do a mobile version—but I think I'd almost need two versions ... one that was strictly posts, like the Serious Eats one. And another that was a simple pizza guide sortable by location and/or rating.
Adam Kuban at 5:57PM on 06/03/09
@Slicemeister I think you're right. And of course you'd improve upon the strictly posts version to allow adding comments. And editing for when we f**k up.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 12:01AM on 06/04/09
Spot on about Di Fara's. Sopping wet mess of a pie. They should serve it a bowl with a spoon.
EazyB at 4:56PM on 06/05/09
LAPizzaMaven.....I agree with you. We went to the OG Grimaldis in Brooklyn a few years ago and it was good.....just not amazingly good. We have been to the Grimaldis in Vegas a few times and it was better. Perfect char, perfect crust, everything about the pizza was awesome in Vegas.
timbigworm11 at 12:38PM on 06/16/09
@ Paulie Gee: what kind of beer research effort?
I agree atmosphere can enhance the experience of visiting a pizzeria, and yes great pizza can definitely be about more than just the pizza itself, but I can't taste atmosphere. And to me you simply cannot have a great pizza without great crust and great toppings and without a balance between the crust, sauce, cheese and other toppings.
As far as DiFara's, I have not been yet, but am going very soon. I'd be surprised if his pizza is indeed what I would personally call great, given his penchent for fermenting his dough for only 1-2 hours (which is not nearly enough time to develop the more complex flavors from fermentation by-products which help to make a great crust), but I am very much looking forward to watching him in person!
Pizzablogger at 3:34PM on 06/16/09
@pizzablogger I've never been much of a beer drinker and I want to learn more about different types of brews (lagers, ales, etc) so I've been doing a lot of sampling. As far as crust and toppings go I agreee wholeheartedly. I just like to enjoy it in a place that has great atmosphere as well. I don't know about my crust, but I'm heading home right now for a rare weeknight pizza tasting. If nothing else, my Limoncello should make for some killer atmosphere. GTG.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 4:04PM on 06/16/09
@ PGee: my natural yeast poolish was rocking after a 12 hour room temperature rise on Saturday night followed by another feeding and a 4 hour rise at 85°F on Sunday afternoon....creamy, rocky headed, craggy, nappy goodness! The dough balls have been cold proofing for 2 days now and look ready to go......I'll be firing the oven (my pizza stones lack the atmosphere of a brick oven, damn you!) tonight as well.
Beer is something definitely in my wheel-house, so to speak. I've worked in a home brew shop for a few years and have been a "beer snob" for 20 years now. BTW, many pale ales go very well with pizza, as I'm sure you have discovered. Have you ventured into the treasure trove of styles that is Belgium yet? Enjoy the pizza tasting and tip a limoncello back for me! --PB
Pizzablogger at 4:23PM on 06/16/09
"my natural yeast poolish was rocking after a 12 hour room temperature rise on Saturday night followed by another feeding and a 4 hour rise at 85°F on Sunday afternoon....creamy, rocky headed, craggy, nappy goodness! The dough balls have been cold proofing for 2 days now and look ready to go......"
That sounds serious. I've had a packet of starter from Naples sitting and waiting for me to take the plunge. It's been a busy month. Fortunately my current, less complex recipe is serving me well. Last night's highlight was a pie with guanciale and sunnyside eggs. I'll be posting the photo soon.
"I'll be firing the oven (my pizza stones lack the atmosphere of a brick oven, damn you!) tonight as well."
What's stopping you from buying or building the real deal?
"Beer is something definitely in my wheel-house, so to speak. I've worked in a home brew shop for a few years and have been a "beer snob" for 20 years now. BTW, many pale ales go very well with pizza, as I'm sure you have discovered."
Actually I haven't been sampling much while having pizza. This is my favorite place to do research:
http://www.brouwerijlane.com/
Here's an article on the place:
http://www.thrillist.com/brooklyn/brouwerij-lane
"Have you ventured into the treasure trove of styles that is Belgium yet?"
Those are my favorite. His Gruut is very good, as is one from a Cooperstown brewery named Ommagang (pronounced gong).
"Enjoy the pizza tasting and tip a limoncello back for me!
We did and I did, thanks. You should be able to read about it and check out some photos here by the weekend:
http://www.staceysnacksonline.com/
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 8:38AM on 06/17/09
"What's stopping you from buying or building the real deal?"
My inner-city rowhome's "backyard" is not big enough to do so (and is taken up by an old fashioned claw foot tub filled with dirt and planted with rosemary, sage, thyme, lavender, chive and tarragon....not to mention the "Ghetto Bucket Basil"....8 five gallon paint buckets that are my mini forest of basil. I plan on moving in the not too distant future, have been drooling over the Forno Bravo pizza oven plans for several months now and Mrs. Blogger has given the definite two thumbs up to begin construction as soon as I have a home with a little bit of a yard to it.
"as is one from a Cooperstown brewery named Ommagang (pronounced gong)."
Paulie, I definitely recommend taking a tour of Ommegang. That part of NY is beautiful in the fall and the brewery itself is really cool.
Pizzablogger at 12:38PM on 06/17/09
@pizzablogger. Forno Bravo is where I got my plans. Free of charge. Don't buy a house unless the garden (sounds better than yard) is big enough. When we were hunting for a house, I would not consider one unless there was ample room for a pool table.
I love Cooperstown in the Fall. I also love going up for induction ceramonies. The best part is watching the Hall of Famers only golf action on The Otesaga's course.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 2:45PM on 06/17/09