New York Times restaurant critic Frank Bruni examines the Great Pizza Boom of 2009 in his story "The Cult of Artisanal Pizza." It's a must-read that packs a lot of info. Let's summarize.
The Cliffs Notes Version
Bruni makes the claim that the artisanal boom started in 2004 with the opening of Franny's and Una Pizza Napoletana within a few months of each other. "Both brought a new kind of cachet (and vanity) to pizza making and pizza eating in this city. Both changed its demographics"
He purposely focuses on newer pizzerias, leaving out old favorites "because they’re products of less self-conscious pizza times." (So no comments here about "Where's Di Fara?" OK?)
Why the boom? And why are fancy-pants chefs and restaurant moguls getting into the game? It's the economy, stupid. Philadelphia restaurateur Stephen Starr, who's eatsearching for a pizzeria of his own, says, "this seems a lot easier—less money, less pressure. You’re concentrating on one thing rather than sous-chefs and pastry chefs" [After the jump, I give negs to Mr. Bruni's rave review of Veloce Pizzeria.]
On Veloce Pizzeria
Frank Bruni sort of forces my hand here on Veloce Pizzeria. I had been waiting to visit a second and third time before saying anything about it, but based on the lunch I had there last week, I disagree with his assessment: "The nicely charred crust—with a dough of potato, durum and fine zero-zero flour—was firm enough to support a generous measure of toppings."
I will say that the sauce on my square Margherita pizza—a thick, cooked-down, tangy and rich tomato concoction—was excellent. And the crisp bits of cheese at the edges were an added bonus. But my slices were sloppy, floppy, and greasy. There was no firmness whatsoever, and I had to eat the four-slice pie with a knife and fork rather than out of hand.
Bruni believes "by and large that Neapolitan pies—if they can avoid soupiness, as they did at Motorino—are the most appealing"
Looks can be deceiving, he says—and the prettiest ovens don't always make the best pies. Zero Otto Nove ("insipid") and Kesté ("sausage that could have come from a Jimmy Dean’s freezer package"), in particular, receive some serious smackdowns
"...the wave of ostensibly principled pizza restaurants since 2004 has produced a mixed bag"
Few places combine a winning atmosphere and perfect pizza. Roberta's and Tonda, for example, have killer ambiance but OK pizza
Consistency is damn hard to come by
There's a nice series of multimedia audio slideshows that goes along with the main story, with Bruni narrating 30-second snippets over photos of various pizzas from Lucali, Roberta's, Motorino, Co. Company, Franny's, Veloce Pizzeria, Una Pizza Napoletana, and Kesté Pizza & Vino. There's a list of Bruni's top 5 pizzas in the city (UPN, Veloce, Motorino, Co., Franny's), nd there's also a Google map that the Times has compiled and that I am not linking to because it's a total rip off of the Slice Pizza Maps.
For the most part, though, I think Bruni's accurate with his assessments (with the exception of Veloce Pizzeria; see sidebar). He correctly points out that Lucali is good but that its crust is more crisp than crisp-chewy, that Co. Company is maddeningly inconsistent but transcendent at times, that Tonda has pretty run-of-the-mill pizza but an impressive aesthetic.
Their pizza map may rip off Adam's, but at least they include La Pizza Fresca on 20th Street. I had Italian colleagues visiting the city for 3 months and they went to all the "best" pizza places in the city, and their unequivocal vote was for LPF.
I know that Slice has mentioned it favorably, and acknowledged that they've never gotten around to reviewing it. I think the time has come.
@klg19: Touché. You got me there. Would be interesting to revisit LPF for a (long-awaited) review. It's pretty close by my office. I could go for a lunch this week.
I like Keste, but then the pie I had there wasn't soggy like Bruni's was...hm.
I though Veloce was okay. ...And then I found out I had the pie that Bruni didn't like. But I love arugula on my pizza so perhaps that's just a difference in taste. The crust was just a smidge floppier than I would've preferred, not especially charred.
@JoshNY I enjoyed Keste very much the two visits I made, but I'm more than OK with a soft crust. I do agree about the sausage not being anything to write home about though.
The British-accented voice in that recording used the phrases “exclusive, votive-lit hideaway,” “hand-crafted” and “custom-made” in the span of 30 seconds, and mentioned an “1890s Napoleon brick oven,” creating ambiguity about whether an Italian region or French emperor was being referenced.
This doesn't make ANY sense.
He complains about Neapolitan pies being soggy
and for this reason disliked Keste'
and THEN turns around and says he loves Una Pizza Napoletana
which also makes Neapolitan pizzas that are "wet".
WTF?
Look, I know both pizza makers. I love them and their pizzas.
Yes, their pizzas can be wet but that's what real pizza is like...SLIGHTLY
wet...and then towards the end of the meal, it dries up!!
But to complain about it, and then blame one and love another is confusing.
I LOVE both Keste' and Una Pizza Napoletana.
But I did like the article, it was well written and I am sure Bruni is a nice guy :)
Take Care
Gianluca Rottura http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
Once again Bruni showed to be all about politic !!!!
These days it seems as everyone (general public, Timeout, NY Mag and others) prefers Keste.
So, Bruni had to come up with an article that would put Keste down and give the throne back to his pupil, Mr Tattoo Anthony Mangieri .... just to show to others who is the one that dictates the best and the worst in this city.
Do you call this serious journalism?
if you are rating new pizzeria's why bother with including UPN?
If so, where are Di Fara? Grimaldi? Etc Etc?
Ingrdients? Come on!!! You may not like Keste's pizza, but you can't argue about the freshness and the quality of their ingredients.
EITHER BRUNI DOES NOT UNDERSTAND MUCH ABOUT FOOD OR HE HAD HIS OWN GOALS IN WRITING THIS ARTICLE !!!
I'm sick'n tired of these guys judging restaurants thinking at their ego and interests and completely disregarding the food they are eating ...
(and don't you also think that with this article he also wanted to re-evaluate Co after last month review?
I guess jean Gorge pulled his hears and this was Bruni's way of apologize to him!!!)
@ Tonecapo:
Yes, Neapolitan Pizza is definitely soggier and soupier than a regular slice. It does not have to be neither too soggy nor too soupy.
But definitely soggier and soupier than a typical NY slice.
This shows once again that this guy does not know what he is talking about.
Neapolitan Pizza is something different than other styles.
if you write about it, you should now what to write about.
it is almost like trying to compare Spaghetti with Chinese noodle ... aren't they both long-shaped-pasta after all???????
I generally agree with pretty much everything Bruni wrote in this article concerning the pizzerias I've visited. Kesté turns out a fine pizza, but it's not great. Mine, at least, was too heavily topped with both sauce and cheese. UPN's pizzas are like the freakin' platonic ideal of a neapolitan pie. Yes, they're wet. But they aren't overly topped. They're balanced and remarkably delicious.
funny egadman........in all of my experiences at Keste and UPN I found that Roberto puts more sauce and less cheese on his pies........whereas Anthony puts a minimal amount of sauce and way more cheese........
i guess it's diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks or just how the random sampling turns out. or both! either way, i'd be happy to have any of the pizzerias Bruni wrote about in my neighborhood. sadly, my neighborhood is 3000 miles away.
@egadman:
UPN's pizzas are like the freakin' platonic ideal of Neapolitan pie?
Are you serious?
have you ever been in Napoli to say something like that?
Just because this place is Called UPN and he uses a wood burning oven, it does not mean he makes Neapolitan Pizza.
If anything he is very far from.
He may make a decent pizza, but UPN's pizza is not a Neapolitan pie.
His pizza is constantly undercooked !!!
Try to go to UPN and look at the slice from the side, you will always find a line of raw dough ... always.
Nowhere, and I repeat nowhere, you will find GARLIC and MOZZARELLA cheese on the same pizza in Napoli.
Both flavor just do not match.
2 out of 4 pizza that Mr. Tattoo makes have both toppings.
UPN is not Neapolitan.
Mr. Tattoo is a great Marketing guy, not that great of a pizza maker.
He tells people he makes the dough by hand ...
...he has and he uses a Dough machine !!!!
He tells people he built his own oven ...
...BS he bought it in Napoli ....
Let's care more about the pizza and less about stories and marketing invention ....
Please stop consider UPN a real Neapolitan pizza.
If you have been in Napoli at least once in your life you would know the difference.
Let's start with giving the real name to things otherwise any conversation after would not have any sense at all ...
And yes, I loved the site. Stunning pictures. Makes u wanna lick the screen. I think it was a good review. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Lets leave it at that...
@leyway:
Sorry if I got too passionate about it.
But just to be clear I was not arguing on other people opinion.
I was arguing about facts.
UPN is not a neapolitan pizza.
That's a fact, is not an opinion.
We may like UPN's pizza or we may not like it, that is a personal opinion and left to personal taste. None argues on that.
In my opinion though, you cannot call it neapolitan pizza.
Believe me, if you had pizza in Napoli you would know what I'm talking about!
Said that, I liked the NY times "graphic presentation" as well ... even though I love SLICE the most ...
I never knew that about garlic and mozzarella, but just last week Roberto at Kestè told me the same thing. That being said, I love Mangieri's Filettii and a perennial favorite pie at my tastings is a fior di latte, Pecorino Romano, Fresh basil and chopped garlic pie. You can catch a glimpse of one fresh out of the oven in the Slicemeister's very flattering Pizza Madman piece:
@Paulie Gee: saw the link and some of your Flickr stuff -- OMG! What do Lillian and I have to do to wangle an invite to one of your tastings? Given your passion for pizza (shameless self-promotion and a respectful nod), we need to eat pizza with you, brother!
@passion4pizza Patience is a virtue. And you should be able to tell from my flickr links in my response to Cocco above, that I occasionally dabble in shameless self promotion as well.
@Cocodimamma: I call BS, and not because you are saying UPN is not Neapolitan, which is a valid point to make.
I am no expert on UPN, being a 400 mile round trip from it and I have only eaten seven pizzas from UPN, but not one of them has ever had a line of raw dough when viewed from the side.....and I pay very close attention to that kind of thing every time I eat pizza. I'm not saying it has never happened to someone else at UPN, but it has not occured with me. So, "always (and 2x at that)" may be a bit of a stretch.
Mangieri did in fact knead his dough by hand at one point, even in his East Village location, but now uses a mixer. I'm not sure if he is still claiming to hand knead since obtaining the mixer, but I have not seen him mentioning or claiming to hand knead recently. I could of course be wrong and would like to see where he has recently claimed to still entirely hand knead since obtaining the mixer.
Ditto's for the oven. Mangieri has mentioned, on more than one occassion, the oven he currently has was built in Napoli. He also mentions the oven prior to that was built by someone else. The only mention I have heard from Mangieri about building his own oven is one he made in his backyard many years ago. I admittedly have no idea if he built the oven in his old New Jersey location himself or if he claimed to make the NJ oven when in fact he did not. Again, as far as the ovens at the East Village location, he has mentioned he did not build them.
As far as Napoli. Yes, Mangieri's pizzas are not quite today's Neapolitan pizza, which are often even "wetter" and softer in the cornicione than UPN, much of that attributable to the very fast cook times often employed(even faster than at American wood fired brick oven pizzerias). That being said, just because pizza is made in Napoli does not mean it is necessarily good. Just like anywhere else, when taken as a whole, Napoli has a lot of sub-standard to good pizzerias and a much smaller amount of of pizzerias making what could be called excellent pizze.
Riddle me this: How many pizzerias in Napoli are naturally leavening their bread via a crisceto anymore? I don't know the answer, but I have been assured by someone with much more first hand pizze and bread making knowledge (in Napoli) than me the answer is not many at all. You could at least make the argument, whether a person agrees with it or not, the pizzas Mangieri is making are much closer to the way pizze was made in Napoli before the advent of bakers yeast as the de facto means to leaven dough. As such, his pizze may in fact be a closer link to older times in Napoli.
You would be mistaken if you think UPN is the best pizza I have ever had and I am not one to say anyone else's opinion is invalid, but from everything I can see from avidly watching as many video interviews and print articles about Mangieri as I could find over the past couple of years, as well as some brief questions with him personally, I have not once heard him make the claims you purport in your post and would very much like to see where these claims have been made, as it would change my opinion about Mangieri. I do not live in NYC, so I do not have the access to local media like you all do. Please enlighten me.
Please excuse me as, like you, I am very passionate about my opinions and sometimes I cannot take out all of the emotion from them. I apologize if I am wrong, but it almost seems like you have some other type of agenda based on what you posted about UPN. This long winded gas-bag of a post by me isn't a defense of Mangieri or the pizza at UPN per se, but a post looking for the truth. Show me the facts, because what is easily available to the public at large has Mangieri on record saying something different than what you are claiming. I simply cannot not tolerate anyone flaming potential untruths about a business, pizzeria or not.
So, it's my turn to be the bad guy, but I like anyone passionate about pizza, or anything for that matter, so Cocodimamma, maybe we will be lucky to find ourselves at Paulie's for a tasting one day....you can give me a good slap and call me an idiot, then we can raise home made limoncello and dig into the intricacies of Paulie's pizzas together, grounded together in the fact something so simple as a disk of bubbling cheese and sauce has caused people to swoon for centuries. --PB
@pizzablogger and Coccodimamma I only have a brick oven in my garden, not a boxing ring. In addition to shameless self promotion, there's some seriously shameless solicitation goin' on here. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'd love to have everyone over for one of my tastings but it' difficult to accomodate one enthusiast without accomodating everyone else. Perhaps if you are as relentlessly and shamelessly seductive as Stacey was I might succumb:
In the meantime I hope to be able to accomodate everyone shortly in Brooklyn. However, I have but one roadblock left to making my dream a reality at this point, but it's been a tough one to plow through.
I'm not interested in a boxing ring.....I blame Mrs. P Blogger....she slipped some sort of irritant into my oatmeal this morning which caused me to ramble off the handle.
Sounds like you are a skiddadlyin' to Brooklyn. Good luck finishing the move. I'm assuming a new, larger oven is in the works?
Authenticity is no guarantee of greatness.
At the risk of upsetting VPN aficionados, here's my latest rant (slightly re-worked from a similar post on 'The Fresh Loaf')
Recently, there has been a trend towards pizza 'authenticity' via Naples. This has essentially become the face of 'artisanal' pizza of the last few years. Everyone wants to use 'authentic ingredients' sourced from Italy, 00 flour, san marzano (DOP) tomatoes, mozzarella di bufala, even sourdough starters of traditional neapolitan provenance. Then, of course, there are the prohibitively expensive wood-fired ovens (As I understand it, a true, crafted-in-naples WFO will cost the prospective pizzeria a cool $15,000!)
Somewhere in this pizza fervour, it seems to have been forgotten that the ingredients and equipment used in the 'authentic product' were (still are) specific to the area in which neapolitan pizza was first created. For pizzerias in Naples, the DOC Pizza Margherita uses LOCAL ingredients. A pizza there will set you back all of about 5 euros!
In comparison, creating a facsimile pizza in the US requires a serious amount of overhead in addition to expensive imported ingredients. Hell, some pizzerias even 'import' a genuine italian pizzaiolo to make the pizzas! The carbon footprint (I'm not talking about the char!) on a DOC pizza in, say, New York is ridiculous! There is a danger, when extending and promoting beyond the borders of Italy, for organisations such as VPN to turn pizza napoletana into something akin to a franchise. They risk becoming unwitting (or perhaps wittingly?) salesmen for a handful of italian manufacturers (of pizza ovens, flour etc.) pushing the 'neapolitan brand' rather than pizza excellence.
In sharp contrast, recent years have also witnessed the rise of the locavore. I would really like to see new 'artisan pizzerias' pay more attention to this movement. Using local ingredients means fresher, usually tastier food with less reliance on long-distance trade (witness last year's buffalo mozzarella health scare). For those that care, there are also more chances to provide the customer with assurances of ethical and environmentally friendly production/farming methods for their food. By developing relationships with regional suppliers, we create a healthy food infrastructure that benefits consumer, producer and local economy.
Is US-produced mozzarella as 'good' as imported? Probably not. Does hard montana wheat flour (for example) handle in the same was as 00 Caputo? Absolutely not.
However if the same level of commitment were made towards domestic/local products that is currently focused on imported ingredients, I have no doubt that standards will increase where necessary and pizza makers will learn how to take advantage to maximise flavour to produce unique, superlative pies. Just take a look at the success of Chris Bianco in Phoenix. It'd be hard to argue that he was compromising his pizza in any way by choosing to use olive oil from arizona.
Moreover, it reflects the same spirit that gave birth to the legendary Pizza Napoletana in the first place. How's that for authenticity?
FP
When I dream of opening my own pizzeria (which becomes more often over time), I constantly think about what Bianco has done. I would prefer to know my miller, to be able to drive to the farm and put my hands on the cows that make the milk for my homemade mozzarella, to be able to put my hands in the dirt where my greens come from, where my tomatoes are grown (which would be canned for all year goodness), etc. And I would never even advertise it.....it would sour the reasoning behind it.
I don't want to make pies in the same exact way as Bianco, but what he is doing in Phoenix smacks so much more of the essence of what Italian cooking really is all about compared to some of these newer places. However, just realize Bianco is blessed with a much better geographic area for sourcing fresh ingredients over a longer portion of the year than NY.
Great post and I'm glad to have briefly made a virtual aquaintance with you! Have a safe trip back across the pond.
@FP: Keep in mind even a Baker's Pride Super Deck EP-1-8-3836 electric oven (the newer line which can get to 800°F), is gonna run you about $8,000 to $10,000.
Now, you could build your own brick oven, but for a business it might be wise to leave it to the experts to ensure the best chance of having an oven which reflects heat as evenly as possible. Hotter is better and an oven which can bring the floor up to 800°F to 900°F is not gonna be cheap, regardless of the heat source.
Very true and point taken re: ovens. It's never going to be cheap.
I understand A. Mangieri ripped out his 'built from scratch' oven to install the current one (shipped from Naples?).
Then again, Bianco designed his own...so don't know. Perhaps it's the expertise we should be importing (and adapting, spreading) rather than the product?
FP
@Pizzablogger I am seriously considering buying one of the 15 grand babies foolishpoolish refers to, however it not nearly as much about the oven than it is about the dough. I've seen pictures of some amazing pies coming out of FP's gas kitchen oven. If anyone hasn't seen them, be sure to check them out. He is a true artisan:
Woah....
I just read the news about UPN. Blimey. I guess I may never get to try it now :-/
And thanks for the kind comments Paulie. Your pies have definitely been one of my recent inspirations. (The oven's electric btw)
Next time I'm over this side of the pond - any chance of a tasting? maybe...? ;)
Cheers, FP
@Paulie: Am I to be correct in assuming you are opening a pizzeria in Brooklyn?!
And yes, the FP dough pictures drove me ga ga spastic, talk about an effin CRUMB! Dough is important, but nothing is more important than the person behind it all, making the dough, handling it like a delicate baby and having a hot enough oven to bring it to the fullness of dough self-actualization topped with awesome toppings....not to mention the passion and focus to do it again and again with pride and consistency.
Whether you are moving to Brooklyn and/or are opening a pizzeria there, much love, luck and hope from down here in Charm City. If you need any help schlepping materials around, give me a holler.....I'd love to meet you and you might as well put me to some good use if we do meet. I'll be the dude wearing the "will work for pizza" tee-shirt!
@Paulie: BTW, if you are realizing your dream of opening your own pizza place, drop me a line at pizzablogger01@gmail.com
There are others of us who dream, and having more intimate knowledge of some of the costs, etc involved with the process would be very beneficial whenever you have time. I know you musy be busy. Thanks and go get em!
"Am I to be correct in assuming you are opening a pizzeria in Brooklyn?!"
The idea has crossed my mind on occasion.
"....not to mention the passion and focus to do it again and again with pride and consistency."
You did mention it. Yes, the ever elusive consistency. I'm always recall AM doing the sign of the cross as he prepares his dough at the end of his documentary. Just like Tiger Wood. He never knows when he's gonna end up in the trees. Or in the drink.
"I'd love to meet you and you might as well put me to some good use if we do meet. I'll be the dude wearing the "will work for pizza" tee-shirt!"
@paulie: Since you're getting to be famous, I figured you needed a stalker. But I'll have to give it up, since I don't live out there any more.
Actually, I'm just a pizzaman admiring your work from afar. Your flickr page tipped me off.
And I meant no disrespect - I would love for you to make me some pizza. If you come to SF again, I'd love to make some for you.
I actually rented Naked Prey because of that scene. My favorite scene, perhaps, and also food related: "I wish there was a Gus. He'd help me out, the bastard...Can't you see I'm serving luncheon?...You want lunch, you shake your ass!"
Funniest movie ever, but you gotta watch it with people who know. I was shown the light by the son of a guy named Fettweis in NJ who watches it annually with his old buddies, or used to anyway. Maybe you're one of them.
@pauliegee,
never seen those picture before, they make me want to eat pizza tonight !!!
@pizzablogger,
My point is simple.
I'm born and raised in Napoli.
I'm a pizza lover.
I'm a passionate pizza lover.
I just can't stand when the term "Neapolitan PIzza" is used (and abused) to talk about pies that are not neapolitan at all.
In regards to the facts and the claims I made, I'm sorry to have generated so much animosity, but I don't have the proof you're asking.
What it bothers me is what people thinks or say about UPN ..
... It is an authentic neapolitan place, he makes it's dough by hand, he built his oven ... I'm not sure if he ever said that, but these are common believes among pizza lovers in NY.
Nothing personal against Mangieri, I just can't stand these kind of false myths.
Said that, I agree with you about Neapolitan Pizza.
Authentic Neapolitan pizza does not necessarily means good.
I agree there are a lot of bad pizzeria in Napoli itself.
On the other end a good pizza is a good pizza either if it's a Neapolitan pizza or if it's an Australian pizza.
Cocodimamma, directly calling or infering anyone a liar (which you very much did), whether that person is a pizza maker or a homeless person in the street, is as serious and grave an offense a person can make in their life and is very personal, period.....particularly when such a person has no proof to back it up (and easily obtainable Google and YouTube searches for Anthony Mangieri tell the facts).
Mind you I would be as irked as I was if you were mentioning similar untrue claims about Roberto Caporuscio or the dude working the pizza cart at a county fair in Kansas.
Being very passionate about something is a beautiful thing, but can also lead one into trouble and say things in the heat of the moment they might not have said otherwise. I've been there before, believe me more than once. As Paulie Gee said, "A kingdom for a comment editor".
Have a good weekend and ciao to you as well. Happy eating :)
@Coccodimamma
You seem very passionate about 'authentic neapolitan pizza' but it's not clear exactly what you mean when you use that term.
Do you refer to pizza from a specific geographic region? (ie Naples)
(and if you think there is any consensus on neapolitan pizza, even in Naples, you might want to watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNXkWs0Pa_s&NR=1)
Do you refer to pizza as outlined by Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana?
Do you refer to pizza you personally remember from growing up in Naples?
All are valid viewpoints just as I'm sure everyone has their own idea of what 'true neapolitan' pizza is. With as rich a pizza culture as exists in NY , I think this variety of opinion and taste should be celebrated (as it is here on Slice) rather than 'policed'.
Whether UPN observes some of the finer details of the VPN guidelines is really not the issue. There can be little doubt (at least from what I have read and seen), the pizza that A. Mangieri makes is totally inspired by the pizza of Naples. He does not claim nor apparently has he sought VPN certification and indeed why should he? He has remained true to the spirit of the pizza that moved and spoke to him right from the start. In my opinion, integrity, dedication and skill, speak louder than any certificate.
I will try to clarify my thought for the last time, as I'm sure we can continue for days and never agree.
First of all I want to apologies if I accused someone of being a liar. I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
It really bothers me when people identify UPN as the absolute Neapolitan experience (which is not) and I got too passionate about it.
Getting to the questions that foolishpoolish is raising, it's not easy to explain.
I'm not talking of geography or standards.
I'm talking of taste. Taste and nothing else.
I have eaten at UPN many times and It never felt as if I was eating a neapolitan pizza.
It's not easy to explain.
It's not a bad pizza at all. it's just not Neapolitan.
It just does not bring me back to Napoli.
This is my personal opinion.
But believe me is the same impression most Neapolitan (and Italian) in NY have of UPN. As a matter of fact it is very difficult to find Italians eating at UPN.
With this, I do not want to state that Neapolitan are the absolute judges of pizza.
I do not want to impose you the fact that Neapolitan pizza is the best.
That is my personal believe and as such questionable.
Sorry again for all the passion and the misunderstanding.
@coccodimamma: never be sorry for having passion, to be without passion is to be not Italiana, no?
BTW, the last time I was in UPN the table next to us was full of Italian nuns (Sicilian) from a local parish who are regulars.... they were a little perplexed my mom's recent trip to Sicily did not include a visit to their small town..."well, you should have visited our town.....lol"
Coco, as a Neapolitan, which pizzerias in New York really bring the flavor of Napoli back to you? Keste seems to do that for you. What about Motorino? I unfortunately have not been yet and am always curious to hear another opinion about it. Thanks.
I only tried Motorino once at it was good.
I used to love "La pizza fresca" for years before their head chef moved on to open his own place Ottimo (where surpisely pizza is not that great).
Cocodimamma, looking at the recent article on the Neapolitan movement in New York, I am now very curious if you are not in fact Rosario Procino of Keste pizza......from the article, "A competitor claims that there’s often “a line of uncooked dough” running through the rim of Mangieri’s pizzas. Rosario Procino of Kesté, while giving credit to Mangieri as a pioneer, scoffs at his assertion that Neapolitan pizza means just Margherita and marinara, “which is b.s....."
Let me start by saying what Mangieri is ranting about in that article makes me wonder if he has lost his mind. While a person has the right to have an opinion on something they love, and a passionate one at that, I would think Mangieri might potentially be happy that a broader group of the public is being exposed to pizzas offering some insight into Neapolitan pizza, even if the pizzas in question are not exactly Neapolitan. There could be a far worse thing in life for more people the be introduced to the style.
If I worked at Keste or some of the other pizzerias in the city, I would certainly be pissed at what Mangieri said in that article.
@f r y I better update my flickr profile. I didn't think anyone looked at it. I don't know nobdy named Fettweiss, sorry. But he sounds like a wise man. I was trying to remember that "I wish there was a Gus" line. Very funny. Shameless self promotion alert! Since you're from SF, here's my little tribute to The City By The Bay:
@coccodimamma Thanks for the compliment. However, I get the feeling you wanna eat every night. And thanks to you and pizzablogger for giving a very good thread some serious legs.
@paulie: Great pix - you can see why Mangieri would want to move shop out here. Maybe not a great business move, though.
@Anybody who's been tempted into watching Where's Poppa: I highly recommend watching the shorter version a few times before watching the the longer one. Once you've seen the extended ending, you can't go back.
@Pizzablogger: Interesting catch. I think you might be on to something. Also, check out his comment in this post, where he is particularly exuberant in his endorsement of Keste's "pizza wallet."
@paulie: to be clear, the extended ending I was referring to starts after gordon & louise drive off w/o momma. If your's ends there, then that's the short version. The dvd has the extended ending in the special features section. I think the dvd is out of print, but netflix has it. If you have trouble, I can get it to you.
@pizzablogger and Daniel,
I'm not Rosario.
My name is Nicola.
I'm a very loyal customer of Keste' and big fan of Roberto since a Mano.
Big fan of their pizza and Neapolitan Pizza in general.
I'm often there and therefore became quite friendly with both Rosario, Roberto and their staff.
and Yes, I cheer for them in this "crazy" (in a good way) pizza moment, but nothing more.
"Anybody who's been tempted into watching Where's Poppa: I highly recommend watching the shorter version a few times before watching the the longer one. Once you've seen the extended ending, you can't go back."
@f r y I just watched the extended version. I never want to see it again. Thanks though.
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71 Comments:
"The combination of an utterly soothing or attractive ambience and pizza to swoon over is uncommon"
Now where did I hear that before?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 8:20AM on 07/08/09
Motorino - Best pies in the city. Where have I heard that before? Congratulations Mathieu P.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 8:58AM on 07/08/09
Lukewarm ratings for Salvatore's of Soho and Toby's Public House were disappointing to me.
Almost felt as if Frankie didn't want to praise Franny's clam pie, but did so with some reservations.
famdoc at 9:12AM on 07/08/09
you're pizza map doesn't include L'asso in nolita. I also feel bad for tonda. everyones tearing into them this week.
carreet at 11:29AM on 07/08/09
When will the Pizza Map include Portland, Oregon? Some pretty good stuff going on out here............
tomdorkey at 12:06PM on 07/08/09
@carreet: I just added L'Asso, just for you!
Also: If Tonda made better pizza, people wouldn't rip into them.
Adam Kuban at 12:07PM on 07/08/09
Their pizza map may rip off Adam's, but at least they include La Pizza Fresca on 20th Street. I had Italian colleagues visiting the city for 3 months and they went to all the "best" pizza places in the city, and their unequivocal vote was for LPF.
I know that Slice has mentioned it favorably, and acknowledged that they've never gotten around to reviewing it. I think the time has come.
klg19 at 12:43PM on 07/08/09
@klg19: Touché. You got me there. Would be interesting to revisit LPF for a (long-awaited) review. It's pretty close by my office. I could go for a lunch this week.
Adam Kuban at 1:14PM on 07/08/09
Bruni did not seem to be much of a fan of Keste, and based on my experience (just one visit) neither am I.
Does anyone else find Keste disappointing? Or rather think it's great or good?
JoshNY at 3:21PM on 07/08/09
I like Keste, but then the pie I had there wasn't soggy like Bruni's was...hm.
I though Veloce was okay. ...And then I found out I had the pie that Bruni didn't like. But I love arugula on my pizza so perhaps that's just a difference in taste. The crust was just a smidge floppier than I would've preferred, not especially charred.
roboppy at 5:16PM on 07/08/09
@JoshNY I enjoyed Keste very much the two visits I made, but I'm more than OK with a soft crust. I do agree about the sausage not being anything to write home about though.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 5:23PM on 07/08/09
The British-accented voice in that recording used the phrases “exclusive, votive-lit hideaway,” “hand-crafted” and “custom-made” in the span of 30 seconds, and mentioned an “1890s Napoleon brick oven,” creating ambiguity about whether an Italian region or French emperor was being referenced.
Geez.
Mooner at 8:29PM on 07/08/09
This doesn't make ANY sense.
He complains about Neapolitan pies being soggy
and for this reason disliked Keste'
and THEN turns around and says he loves Una Pizza Napoletana
which also makes Neapolitan pizzas that are "wet".
WTF?
Look, I know both pizza makers. I love them and their pizzas.
Yes, their pizzas can be wet but that's what real pizza is like...SLIGHTLY
wet...and then towards the end of the meal, it dries up!!
But to complain about it, and then blame one and love another is confusing.
I LOVE both Keste' and Una Pizza Napoletana.
But I did like the article, it was well written and I am sure Bruni is a nice guy :)
Take Care
Gianluca Rottura
http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
nextgospel at 9:51PM on 07/08/09
Yeah and the pie he championed at UPN has no sauce !
I loved the description of AM at UPN....
"And he IS a pizzaiolo.....sort of cult figure - tattoos and all that"
I'm getting Relax & Frankie Goes To Midwood tattoos on my ass in respect of dissed pizzaiolos everywhere.
seriouspizza at 11:19PM on 07/08/09
"I believe by and large that Neapolitan pies — if they can avoid soupiness..."
Honest question here, but aren't true traditional Neapolitan pizzas supposed to be soupy?
tonecapo at 11:29PM on 07/08/09
I finally got to see the interactive feature and just want to give kudos to the photographer. Stunning images.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 8:54AM on 07/09/09
Once again Bruni showed to be all about politic !!!!
These days it seems as everyone (general public, Timeout, NY Mag and others) prefers Keste.
So, Bruni had to come up with an article that would put Keste down and give the throne back to his pupil, Mr Tattoo Anthony Mangieri .... just to show to others who is the one that dictates the best and the worst in this city.
Do you call this serious journalism?
if you are rating new pizzeria's why bother with including UPN?
If so, where are Di Fara? Grimaldi? Etc Etc?
Ingrdients? Come on!!! You may not like Keste's pizza, but you can't argue about the freshness and the quality of their ingredients.
EITHER BRUNI DOES NOT UNDERSTAND MUCH ABOUT FOOD OR HE HAD HIS OWN GOALS IN WRITING THIS ARTICLE !!!
I'm sick'n tired of these guys judging restaurants thinking at their ego and interests and completely disregarding the food they are eating ...
(and don't you also think that with this article he also wanted to re-evaluate Co after last month review?
I guess jean Gorge pulled his hears and this was Bruni's way of apologize to him!!!)
Coccodimamma at 10:53AM on 07/09/09
@ Tonecapo:
Yes, Neapolitan Pizza is definitely soggier and soupier than a regular slice. It does not have to be neither too soggy nor too soupy.
But definitely soggier and soupier than a typical NY slice.
This shows once again that this guy does not know what he is talking about.
Neapolitan Pizza is something different than other styles.
if you write about it, you should now what to write about.
it is almost like trying to compare Spaghetti with Chinese noodle ... aren't they both long-shaped-pasta after all???????
Damn ... I should be a food critic ....
Coccodimamma at 11:38AM on 07/09/09
@Coccodimamma: Frank Bruni = all New York Times and no pizza.
passion4pizza at 11:56AM on 07/09/09
I generally agree with pretty much everything Bruni wrote in this article concerning the pizzerias I've visited. Kesté turns out a fine pizza, but it's not great. Mine, at least, was too heavily topped with both sauce and cheese. UPN's pizzas are like the freakin' platonic ideal of a neapolitan pie. Yes, they're wet. But they aren't overly topped. They're balanced and remarkably delicious.
egadman at 1:13PM on 07/09/09
funny egadman........in all of my experiences at Keste and UPN I found that Roberto puts more sauce and less cheese on his pies........whereas Anthony puts a minimal amount of sauce and way more cheese........
southlake98 at 2:40PM on 07/09/09
i guess it's diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks or just how the random sampling turns out. or both! either way, i'd be happy to have any of the pizzerias Bruni wrote about in my neighborhood. sadly, my neighborhood is 3000 miles away.
egadman at 2:43PM on 07/09/09
@egadman:
UPN's pizzas are like the freakin' platonic ideal of Neapolitan pie?
Are you serious?
have you ever been in Napoli to say something like that?
Just because this place is Called UPN and he uses a wood burning oven, it does not mean he makes Neapolitan Pizza.
If anything he is very far from.
He may make a decent pizza, but UPN's pizza is not a Neapolitan pie.
His pizza is constantly undercooked !!!
Try to go to UPN and look at the slice from the side, you will always find a line of raw dough ... always.
Nowhere, and I repeat nowhere, you will find GARLIC and MOZZARELLA cheese on the same pizza in Napoli.
Both flavor just do not match.
2 out of 4 pizza that Mr. Tattoo makes have both toppings.
UPN is not Neapolitan.
Mr. Tattoo is a great Marketing guy, not that great of a pizza maker.
He tells people he makes the dough by hand ...
...he has and he uses a Dough machine !!!!
He tells people he built his own oven ...
...BS he bought it in Napoli ....
Let's care more about the pizza and less about stories and marketing invention ....
Please stop consider UPN a real Neapolitan pizza.
If you have been in Napoli at least once in your life you would know the difference.
Let's start with giving the real name to things otherwise any conversation after would not have any sense at all ...
Coccodimamma at 8:47PM on 07/09/09
Frank Bruni knows his pies. Just finished off my inaugural Pugliese. It kicked ass. As did my perennial favorite Sopressata Picante.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 10:24PM on 07/09/09
@Coccodimamma, relax...
And yes, I loved the site. Stunning pictures. Makes u wanna lick the screen. I think it was a good review. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Lets leave it at that...
leyway at 1:50AM on 07/10/09
@leyway:
Sorry if I got too passionate about it.
But just to be clear I was not arguing on other people opinion.
I was arguing about facts.
UPN is not a neapolitan pizza.
That's a fact, is not an opinion.
We may like UPN's pizza or we may not like it, that is a personal opinion and left to personal taste. None argues on that.
In my opinion though, you cannot call it neapolitan pizza.
Believe me, if you had pizza in Napoli you would know what I'm talking about!
Said that, I liked the NY times "graphic presentation" as well ... even though I love SLICE the most ...
Coccodimamma at 4:26AM on 07/10/09
I never knew that about garlic and mozzarella, but just last week Roberto at Kestè told me the same thing. That being said, I love Mangieri's Filettii and a perennial favorite pie at my tastings is a fior di latte, Pecorino Romano, Fresh basil and chopped garlic pie. You can catch a glimpse of one fresh out of the oven in the Slicemeister's very flattering Pizza Madman piece:
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/04/an-evening-with-paulie-gee-gianonne-pizza-madman-of-warren-nj.html
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 6:02AM on 07/10/09
@pauliegee:
Just looked at the link you posted
...AMAZING ...
... forget about Keste, UPN and the others ... we should all come to your place !!! You should open your own place ... Those pies look amazing !!!
Coccodimamma at 9:04AM on 07/10/09
@Cocco Thanks very much. Hopefully I'll be able to accommodate you soon. Especially if you live within shouting distance of the Borough of Kings.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:22AM on 07/10/09
hey paulie it's me gianluca
i'm still waiting to eat your pizzas :)
nextgospel at 9:57AM on 07/10/09
@Paulie Gee: saw the link and some of your Flickr stuff -- OMG! What do Lillian and I have to do to wangle an invite to one of your tastings? Given your passion for pizza (shameless self-promotion and a respectful nod), we need to eat pizza with you, brother!
passion4pizza at 10:00AM on 07/10/09
@Cocco I see from one of your other comments that you are a fan of Roberto's. Have you seen my shots of three of the places he's been involved in?:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauliegee/sets/72157603411254722/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauliegee/sets/72157614031030708/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauliegee/sets/72157616620832116/
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 10:02AM on 07/10/09
@gianluca I'm still waiting to drink your Gragnano. Hopefully neither of us will have to wait much longer.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 10:04AM on 07/10/09
@passion4pizza Patience is a virtue. And you should be able to tell from my flickr links in my response to Cocco above, that I occasionally dabble in shameless self promotion as well.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 10:12AM on 07/10/09
@Cocodimamma: I call BS, and not because you are saying UPN is not Neapolitan, which is a valid point to make.
I am no expert on UPN, being a 400 mile round trip from it and I have only eaten seven pizzas from UPN, but not one of them has ever had a line of raw dough when viewed from the side.....and I pay very close attention to that kind of thing every time I eat pizza. I'm not saying it has never happened to someone else at UPN, but it has not occured with me. So, "always (and 2x at that)" may be a bit of a stretch.
Mangieri did in fact knead his dough by hand at one point, even in his East Village location, but now uses a mixer. I'm not sure if he is still claiming to hand knead since obtaining the mixer, but I have not seen him mentioning or claiming to hand knead recently. I could of course be wrong and would like to see where he has recently claimed to still entirely hand knead since obtaining the mixer.
Ditto's for the oven. Mangieri has mentioned, on more than one occassion, the oven he currently has was built in Napoli. He also mentions the oven prior to that was built by someone else. The only mention I have heard from Mangieri about building his own oven is one he made in his backyard many years ago. I admittedly have no idea if he built the oven in his old New Jersey location himself or if he claimed to make the NJ oven when in fact he did not. Again, as far as the ovens at the East Village location, he has mentioned he did not build them.
As far as Napoli. Yes, Mangieri's pizzas are not quite today's Neapolitan pizza, which are often even "wetter" and softer in the cornicione than UPN, much of that attributable to the very fast cook times often employed(even faster than at American wood fired brick oven pizzerias). That being said, just because pizza is made in Napoli does not mean it is necessarily good. Just like anywhere else, when taken as a whole, Napoli has a lot of sub-standard to good pizzerias and a much smaller amount of of pizzerias making what could be called excellent pizze.
Riddle me this: How many pizzerias in Napoli are naturally leavening their bread via a crisceto anymore? I don't know the answer, but I have been assured by someone with much more first hand pizze and bread making knowledge (in Napoli) than me the answer is not many at all. You could at least make the argument, whether a person agrees with it or not, the pizzas Mangieri is making are much closer to the way pizze was made in Napoli before the advent of bakers yeast as the de facto means to leaven dough. As such, his pizze may in fact be a closer link to older times in Napoli.
You would be mistaken if you think UPN is the best pizza I have ever had and I am not one to say anyone else's opinion is invalid, but from everything I can see from avidly watching as many video interviews and print articles about Mangieri as I could find over the past couple of years, as well as some brief questions with him personally, I have not once heard him make the claims you purport in your post and would very much like to see where these claims have been made, as it would change my opinion about Mangieri. I do not live in NYC, so I do not have the access to local media like you all do. Please enlighten me.
Please excuse me as, like you, I am very passionate about my opinions and sometimes I cannot take out all of the emotion from them. I apologize if I am wrong, but it almost seems like you have some other type of agenda based on what you posted about UPN. This long winded gas-bag of a post by me isn't a defense of Mangieri or the pizza at UPN per se, but a post looking for the truth. Show me the facts, because what is easily available to the public at large has Mangieri on record saying something different than what you are claiming. I simply cannot not tolerate anyone flaming potential untruths about a business, pizzeria or not.
So, it's my turn to be the bad guy, but I like anyone passionate about pizza, or anything for that matter, so Cocodimamma, maybe we will be lucky to find ourselves at Paulie's for a tasting one day....you can give me a good slap and call me an idiot, then we can raise home made limoncello and dig into the intricacies of Paulie's pizzas together, grounded together in the fact something so simple as a disk of bubbling cheese and sauce has caused people to swoon for centuries. --PB
Pizzablogger at 10:20AM on 07/10/09
@pizzablogger and Coccodimamma I only have a brick oven in my garden, not a boxing ring. In addition to shameless self promotion, there's some seriously shameless solicitation goin' on here. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'd love to have everyone over for one of my tastings but it' difficult to accomodate one enthusiast without accomodating everyone else. Perhaps if you are as relentlessly and shamelessly seductive as Stacey was I might succumb:
http://www.staceysnacksonline.com/2009/06/pizza-tasting.html
In the meantime I hope to be able to accomodate everyone shortly in Brooklyn. However, I have but one roadblock left to making my dream a reality at this point, but it's been a tough one to plow through.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 11:30AM on 07/10/09
@Paulie Gee: It doesn't hurt to dream!
I'm not interested in a boxing ring.....I blame Mrs. P Blogger....she slipped some sort of irritant into my oatmeal this morning which caused me to ramble off the handle.
Sounds like you are a skiddadlyin' to Brooklyn. Good luck finishing the move. I'm assuming a new, larger oven is in the works?
Pizzablogger at 11:43AM on 07/10/09
Authenticity is no guarantee of greatness.
At the risk of upsetting VPN aficionados, here's my latest rant (slightly re-worked from a similar post on 'The Fresh Loaf')
Recently, there has been a trend towards pizza 'authenticity' via Naples. This has essentially become the face of 'artisanal' pizza of the last few years. Everyone wants to use 'authentic ingredients' sourced from Italy, 00 flour, san marzano (DOP) tomatoes, mozzarella di bufala, even sourdough starters of traditional neapolitan provenance. Then, of course, there are the prohibitively expensive wood-fired ovens (As I understand it, a true, crafted-in-naples WFO will cost the prospective pizzeria a cool $15,000!)
Somewhere in this pizza fervour, it seems to have been forgotten that the ingredients and equipment used in the 'authentic product' were (still are) specific to the area in which neapolitan pizza was first created. For pizzerias in Naples, the DOC Pizza Margherita uses LOCAL ingredients. A pizza there will set you back all of about 5 euros!
In comparison, creating a facsimile pizza in the US requires a serious amount of overhead in addition to expensive imported ingredients. Hell, some pizzerias even 'import' a genuine italian pizzaiolo to make the pizzas! The carbon footprint (I'm not talking about the char!) on a DOC pizza in, say, New York is ridiculous! There is a danger, when extending and promoting beyond the borders of Italy, for organisations such as VPN to turn pizza napoletana into something akin to a franchise. They risk becoming unwitting (or perhaps wittingly?) salesmen for a handful of italian manufacturers (of pizza ovens, flour etc.) pushing the 'neapolitan brand' rather than pizza excellence.
In sharp contrast, recent years have also witnessed the rise of the locavore. I would really like to see new 'artisan pizzerias' pay more attention to this movement. Using local ingredients means fresher, usually tastier food with less reliance on long-distance trade (witness last year's buffalo mozzarella health scare). For those that care, there are also more chances to provide the customer with assurances of ethical and environmentally friendly production/farming methods for their food. By developing relationships with regional suppliers, we create a healthy food infrastructure that benefits consumer, producer and local economy.
Is US-produced mozzarella as 'good' as imported? Probably not. Does hard montana wheat flour (for example) handle in the same was as 00 Caputo? Absolutely not.
However if the same level of commitment were made towards domestic/local products that is currently focused on imported ingredients, I have no doubt that standards will increase where necessary and pizza makers will learn how to take advantage to maximise flavour to produce unique, superlative pies. Just take a look at the success of Chris Bianco in Phoenix. It'd be hard to argue that he was compromising his pizza in any way by choosing to use olive oil from arizona.
Moreover, it reflects the same spirit that gave birth to the legendary Pizza Napoletana in the first place. How's that for authenticity?
FP
foolishpoolish at 12:19PM on 07/10/09
eeks some bad run on sentences and grammatical errors there. hey it's a rant, mkay?! :)
foolishpoolish at 12:22PM on 07/10/09
FP, you effin rock!
When I dream of opening my own pizzeria (which becomes more often over time), I constantly think about what Bianco has done. I would prefer to know my miller, to be able to drive to the farm and put my hands on the cows that make the milk for my homemade mozzarella, to be able to put my hands in the dirt where my greens come from, where my tomatoes are grown (which would be canned for all year goodness), etc. And I would never even advertise it.....it would sour the reasoning behind it.
I don't want to make pies in the same exact way as Bianco, but what he is doing in Phoenix smacks so much more of the essence of what Italian cooking really is all about compared to some of these newer places. However, just realize Bianco is blessed with a much better geographic area for sourcing fresh ingredients over a longer portion of the year than NY.
Great post and I'm glad to have briefly made a virtual aquaintance with you! Have a safe trip back across the pond.
Pizzablogger at 12:33PM on 07/10/09
@FP: Keep in mind even a Baker's Pride Super Deck EP-1-8-3836 electric oven (the newer line which can get to 800°F), is gonna run you about $8,000 to $10,000.
Now, you could build your own brick oven, but for a business it might be wise to leave it to the experts to ensure the best chance of having an oven which reflects heat as evenly as possible. Hotter is better and an oven which can bring the floor up to 800°F to 900°F is not gonna be cheap, regardless of the heat source.
Pizzablogger at 12:43PM on 07/10/09
Very true and point taken re: ovens. It's never going to be cheap.
I understand A. Mangieri ripped out his 'built from scratch' oven to install the current one (shipped from Naples?).
Then again, Bianco designed his own...so don't know. Perhaps it's the expertise we should be importing (and adapting, spreading) rather than the product?
FP
foolishpoolish at 12:52PM on 07/10/09
@Pizzablogger I am seriously considering buying one of the 15 grand babies foolishpoolish refers to, however it not nearly as much about the oven than it is about the dough. I've seen pictures of some amazing pies coming out of FP's gas kitchen oven. If anyone hasn't seen them, be sure to check them out. He is a true artisan:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/foolishpoolish/sets/72157620278219572/
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 12:58PM on 07/10/09
BTW, I'd love to buy Mangieri's oven, but once Mathieu Palombino buys the place, I doubt very much he'll let it go.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 1:01PM on 07/10/09
Woah....
I just read the news about UPN. Blimey. I guess I may never get to try it now :-/
And thanks for the kind comments Paulie. Your pies have definitely been one of my recent inspirations. (The oven's electric btw)
Next time I'm over this side of the pond - any chance of a tasting? maybe...? ;)
Cheers, FP
foolishpoolish at 1:11PM on 07/10/09
@Paulie: Am I to be correct in assuming you are opening a pizzeria in Brooklyn?!
And yes, the FP dough pictures drove me ga ga spastic, talk about an effin CRUMB! Dough is important, but nothing is more important than the person behind it all, making the dough, handling it like a delicate baby and having a hot enough oven to bring it to the fullness of dough self-actualization topped with awesome toppings....not to mention the passion and focus to do it again and again with pride and consistency.
Whether you are moving to Brooklyn and/or are opening a pizzeria there, much love, luck and hope from down here in Charm City. If you need any help schlepping materials around, give me a holler.....I'd love to meet you and you might as well put me to some good use if we do meet. I'll be the dude wearing the "will work for pizza" tee-shirt!
Pizzablogger at 1:14PM on 07/10/09
@Paulie: BTW, if you are realizing your dream of opening your own pizza place, drop me a line at pizzablogger01@gmail.com
There are others of us who dream, and having more intimate knowledge of some of the costs, etc involved with the process would be very beneficial whenever you have time. I know you musy be busy. Thanks and go get em!
Pizzablogger at 1:18PM on 07/10/09
"And thanks for the kind comments Paulie."
They are not kind. If anything, I was holding back a bit. Being green will do that to you.
"Your pies have definitely been one of my recent inspirations. "
Now that's kind.
"The oven's electric btw"
Go ahead, rub it in.
"Next time I'm over this side of the pond - any chance of a tasting?maybe...? ;)"
No chance if you wait until you are back to tell me about your visit. Same with your buddy from Crabland.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 2:43PM on 07/10/09
"Am I to be correct in assuming you are opening a pizzeria in Brooklyn?!"
The idea has crossed my mind on occasion.
"....not to mention the passion and focus to do it again and again with pride and consistency."
You did mention it. Yes, the ever elusive consistency. I'm always recall AM doing the sign of the cross as he prepares his dough at the end of his documentary. Just like Tiger Wood. He never knows when he's gonna end up in the trees. Or in the drink.
"I'd love to meet you and you might as well put me to some good use if we do meet. I'll be the dude wearing the "will work for pizza" tee-shirt!"
Thanks. I'll be the dude wearing this tee-shirt:
http://www.grandslamnewyork.com/images/UYGSSTBK.jpg
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 2:53PM on 07/10/09
Hey, Paulie, I want an invite, too. And I won't even ask you to make pizza. I just want someone to watch "Where's Poppa?" with.
"If you expect to come boppin' through the park every night, you got to have some breads"
f r y at 4:57PM on 07/10/09
Paulie, if you open a place in Brooklyn, Lil and I want to come to the opening. And we'll BOTH be wearing this tshirt:
http://www.printfection.com/passion-4-pizza
passion4pizza at 5:03PM on 07/10/09
@f r y Who the frig are you and how do you know about my appreciation of "Where's Poppa?"?
We gonna play "The Naked Prey". You better start prayin' 'cause you gonna be naked.
Ciao
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 5:30PM on 07/10/09
@passion I've started an apron collection to go with my paper hat collection. I might have get that one.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 5:32PM on 07/10/09
@paulie: Since you're getting to be famous, I figured you needed a stalker. But I'll have to give it up, since I don't live out there any more.
Actually, I'm just a pizzaman admiring your work from afar. Your flickr page tipped me off.
And I meant no disrespect - I would love for you to make me some pizza. If you come to SF again, I'd love to make some for you.
I actually rented Naked Prey because of that scene. My favorite scene, perhaps, and also food related: "I wish there was a Gus. He'd help me out, the bastard...Can't you see I'm serving luncheon?...You want lunch, you shake your ass!"
Funniest movie ever, but you gotta watch it with people who know. I was shown the light by the son of a guy named Fettweis in NJ who watches it annually with his old buddies, or used to anyway. Maybe you're one of them.
f r y at 6:25PM on 07/10/09
@f r y. Did you know that Gus was Paul Sorvino? My favorite line is "Oh Gordon.....he's got a pecker this big".
For those of you who haven't seen it, you should. It's a little dated but still very funny.
"I don't need a big toe to kill Gooks".
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:02PM on 07/10/09
@pauliegee,
never seen those picture before, they make me want to eat pizza tonight !!!
@pizzablogger,
My point is simple.
I'm born and raised in Napoli.
I'm a pizza lover.
I'm a passionate pizza lover.
I just can't stand when the term "Neapolitan PIzza" is used (and abused) to talk about pies that are not neapolitan at all.
In regards to the facts and the claims I made, I'm sorry to have generated so much animosity, but I don't have the proof you're asking.
What it bothers me is what people thinks or say about UPN ..
... It is an authentic neapolitan place, he makes it's dough by hand, he built his oven ... I'm not sure if he ever said that, but these are common believes among pizza lovers in NY.
Nothing personal against Mangieri, I just can't stand these kind of false myths.
Said that, I agree with you about Neapolitan Pizza.
Authentic Neapolitan pizza does not necessarily means good.
I agree there are a lot of bad pizzeria in Napoli itself.
On the other end a good pizza is a good pizza either if it's a Neapolitan pizza or if it's an Australian pizza.
Ciao
Coccodimamma at 7:30PM on 07/11/09
Cocodimamma, directly calling or infering anyone a liar (which you very much did), whether that person is a pizza maker or a homeless person in the street, is as serious and grave an offense a person can make in their life and is very personal, period.....particularly when such a person has no proof to back it up (and easily obtainable Google and YouTube searches for Anthony Mangieri tell the facts).
Mind you I would be as irked as I was if you were mentioning similar untrue claims about Roberto Caporuscio or the dude working the pizza cart at a county fair in Kansas.
Being very passionate about something is a beautiful thing, but can also lead one into trouble and say things in the heat of the moment they might not have said otherwise. I've been there before, believe me more than once. As Paulie Gee said, "A kingdom for a comment editor".
Have a good weekend and ciao to you as well. Happy eating :)
Pizzablogger at 11:08PM on 07/11/09
@Coccodimamma
You seem very passionate about 'authentic neapolitan pizza' but it's not clear exactly what you mean when you use that term.
Do you refer to pizza from a specific geographic region? (ie Naples)
(and if you think there is any consensus on neapolitan pizza, even in Naples, you might want to watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNXkWs0Pa_s&NR=1)
Do you refer to pizza as outlined by Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana?
Do you refer to pizza you personally remember from growing up in Naples?
All are valid viewpoints just as I'm sure everyone has their own idea of what 'true neapolitan' pizza is. With as rich a pizza culture as exists in NY , I think this variety of opinion and taste should be celebrated (as it is here on Slice) rather than 'policed'.
Whether UPN observes some of the finer details of the VPN guidelines is really not the issue. There can be little doubt (at least from what I have read and seen), the pizza that A. Mangieri makes is totally inspired by the pizza of Naples. He does not claim nor apparently has he sought VPN certification and indeed why should he? He has remained true to the spirit of the pizza that moved and spoke to him right from the start. In my opinion, integrity, dedication and skill, speak louder than any certificate.
FP
foolishpoolish at 1:45AM on 07/12/09
I will try to clarify my thought for the last time, as I'm sure we can continue for days and never agree.
First of all I want to apologies if I accused someone of being a liar. I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
It really bothers me when people identify UPN as the absolute Neapolitan experience (which is not) and I got too passionate about it.
Getting to the questions that foolishpoolish is raising, it's not easy to explain.
I'm not talking of geography or standards.
I'm talking of taste. Taste and nothing else.
I have eaten at UPN many times and It never felt as if I was eating a neapolitan pizza.
It's not easy to explain.
It's not a bad pizza at all. it's just not Neapolitan.
It just does not bring me back to Napoli.
This is my personal opinion.
But believe me is the same impression most Neapolitan (and Italian) in NY have of UPN. As a matter of fact it is very difficult to find Italians eating at UPN.
With this, I do not want to state that Neapolitan are the absolute judges of pizza.
I do not want to impose you the fact that Neapolitan pizza is the best.
That is my personal believe and as such questionable.
Sorry again for all the passion and the misunderstanding.
Coccodimamma at 7:01AM on 07/12/09
@coccodimamma: never be sorry for having passion, to be without passion is to be not Italiana, no?
BTW, the last time I was in UPN the table next to us was full of Italian nuns (Sicilian) from a local parish who are regulars.... they were a little perplexed my mom's recent trip to Sicily did not include a visit to their small town..."well, you should have visited our town.....lol"
Coco, as a Neapolitan, which pizzerias in New York really bring the flavor of Napoli back to you? Keste seems to do that for you. What about Motorino? I unfortunately have not been yet and am always curious to hear another opinion about it. Thanks.
Pizzablogger at 10:37AM on 07/12/09
I only tried Motorino once at it was good.
I used to love "La pizza fresca" for years before their head chef moved on to open his own place Ottimo (where surpisely pizza is not that great).
Coccodimamma at 10:47PM on 07/12/09
Cocodimamma, looking at the recent article on the Neapolitan movement in New York, I am now very curious if you are not in fact Rosario Procino of Keste pizza......from the article, "A competitor claims that there’s often “a line of uncooked dough” running through the rim of Mangieri’s pizzas. Rosario Procino of Kesté, while giving credit to Mangieri as a pioneer, scoffs at his assertion that Neapolitan pizza means just Margherita and marinara, “which is b.s....."
Let me start by saying what Mangieri is ranting about in that article makes me wonder if he has lost his mind. While a person has the right to have an opinion on something they love, and a passionate one at that, I would think Mangieri might potentially be happy that a broader group of the public is being exposed to pizzas offering some insight into Neapolitan pizza, even if the pizzas in question are not exactly Neapolitan. There could be a far worse thing in life for more people the be introduced to the style.
If I worked at Keste or some of the other pizzerias in the city, I would certainly be pissed at what Mangieri said in that article.
Pizzablogger at 9:10AM on 07/13/09
@f r y I better update my flickr profile. I didn't think anyone looked at it. I don't know nobdy named Fettweiss, sorry. But he sounds like a wise man. I was trying to remember that "I wish there was a Gus" line. Very funny. Shameless self promotion alert! Since you're from SF, here's my little tribute to The City By The Bay:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauliegee/sets/72157600889557533/
@coccodimamma Thanks for the compliment. However, I get the feeling you wanna eat every night. And thanks to you and pizzablogger for giving a very good thread some serious legs.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 1:21PM on 07/13/09
@paulie: Great pix - you can see why Mangieri would want to move shop out here. Maybe not a great business move, though.
@Anybody who's been tempted into watching Where's Poppa: I highly recommend watching the shorter version a few times before watching the the longer one. Once you've seen the extended ending, you can't go back.
f r y at 4:52PM on 07/13/09
@f r y Extended ending?!?!?! Where the f**k do I find this extended ending?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 5:22PM on 07/13/09
@Pizzablogger: Interesting catch. I think you might be on to something. Also, check out his comment in this post, where he is particularly exuberant in his endorsement of Keste's "pizza wallet."
Daniel Zemans at 7:11PM on 07/13/09
@paulie: to be clear, the extended ending I was referring to starts after gordon & louise drive off w/o momma. If your's ends there, then that's the short version. The dvd has the extended ending in the special features section. I think the dvd is out of print, but netflix has it. If you have trouble, I can get it to you.
f r y at 8:51PM on 07/13/09
@f r y Thanks. I just put it at the top of my Netflix queue.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:57PM on 07/13/09
@pizzablogger and Daniel,
I'm not Rosario.
My name is Nicola.
I'm a very loyal customer of Keste' and big fan of Roberto since a Mano.
Big fan of their pizza and Neapolitan Pizza in general.
I'm often there and therefore became quite friendly with both Rosario, Roberto and their staff.
and Yes, I cheer for them in this "crazy" (in a good way) pizza moment, but nothing more.
That's all.
Coccodimamma at 11:25AM on 07/14/09
"Anybody who's been tempted into watching Where's Poppa: I highly recommend watching the shorter version a few times before watching the the longer one. Once you've seen the extended ending, you can't go back."
@f r y I just watched the extended version. I never want to see it again. Thanks though.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 7:48AM on 07/25/09
Oh, well. You watched it; you can't unwatch it. It might make you reconsider some of the stuff momma says at dinner.
f r y at 11:55AM on 07/27/09