Roberto Caporuscio, one of the partners-pizzaiolos at Kesté Pizza & Vino in Manhattan's Greenwich Village, led a Neapolitan pizza-making class last night. Before he began punching dough balls and spreading tomato sauce, he went over the basics. Naples is a couple hours south of Rome, and "the pizza from there is not better, it's just different." He gave us a little history on the famous Naples-originating Margherita pizza, which we were about to bake in the Kesté oven cranked up to 950°F.
A baker named Rafaele Esposito whipped up the first pizza Margherita in 1889 to welcome the Queen of Italy, Queen Margherita, to Naples. To make the pie a little more patriotic-looking, Esposito used tomato sauce (red), mozzarella (white), and basil leaves (green)—the colors of the Italian flag. Queen Margherita loved the pizza so much the concoction took her name. (Not sure if anything else she did, but it probably doesn't hold a candle to being a legendary pizza namesake.)
To make the Margherita at Kesté, Caporuscio uses Caputo brand flour from Naples (which contains no additives like the U.S. kinds, he points out), imported canned tomatoes, buffalo mozzarella, fresh basil, and extra virgin olive oil (the only fat he recommends for pizza). The recipe, adapted for normal, nonrestaurant kitchens, follows after the jump.
The workshop was sponsored by Time Out New York's Dining & Libation Society, which puts on awesome culinary events throughout the city on a regular basis. In the June 4–10 issue, the magazine awarded Kesté the honor of top new pizzeria in New York City.
Caporuscio offered some of the pizzaiolo newbies jobs last night after checking out the beautiful pies.
DIY Neapolitan Pizza Dough
- for 9 to 12 very hungry people -
Ingredients
3.75 pounds Tipo "00" flour
1 liter warm water
0.1 ounce fresh yeast
2.1 ounces salt
0.7 ounce sugar (optional)
Procedure
1. Split up the liter of water, using half to dissolve the salt, and the other half to dissolve the yeast. In a perfect world, Caporuscio thinks everyone should use fresh yeast, but he realizes it's not easy to come by. Dry is fine. Most people dissolve the salt and yeast in the same water, but Caporuscio keeps them separate.
2. Combine the flour and sugar. Many flours already have traces of sugar, but the Caputo brand doesn't, so throw a little in yourself. Then add the wet goods, and start working the dough.
3. Caporuscio learned how to mix by hand, but realizes that machines are helpful. If you have a KitchenAid, put it on the lowest speed possible. "One is fine. But if zero was a speed, that'd be better." However you decide to mix the dough, stop after ten minutes, or when it isn't sticky anymore. The key here is s l o o o w.
4. Let dough sit for an hour, covered under plastic.
5. Form into balls, about 20 to 25 ounces each. Store balls in a cool spot, either the fridge or counterspace, for at least five hours to let the dough rise.
6. Preheat oven to 500°F, or however high you can blast that heat up. Spread dough on a baking pan or stone, gently stretching the edges. Scoop tomato sauce on top (take it easy, not too much) and spread around.
You probably don't have one of these pizza infernos, custom-built by two guys from Naples with volcanic stone, but you want one, huh?
7. Bake the dough for ten minutes before any toppings come into play. Now add the tomato sauce and cheese, etc. If you baked the whole shabang at once, the cheese would turn to water and the meats would dry out. So don't. At Kesté, each pie only bakes for about 55 seconds because it's so fracking hot in there. The dude on pizza peel duty boasted his PR: "45 seconds!"
Roberto Caporuscio's Pizza Wisdom
Tossing? Psh, no! He is not a tosser. "Naples is a poor city. We learned not to play with our food."
Fresh or tap water? Tap is cool. Caporuscio has made pizza in many cities, from Las Vegas to Italy, and tap always seems to do the trick.
My baby!
Tomato Sauce? Caporuscio goes easy on the red stuff. In fact, it's almost just pink by the time he spreads it around, nice and good.
The Crust? The puffy pockets have an English muffin chewiness, rather than a charred cracker quality. The Neapolitan crust is steamy and stretchy with some black blisters, almost like naan. If you're a fan of firm, crisp crusts, you may be disappointed.
Pizza bones. I didn't leave many.
Using a Stone? Make the dough thicker if you're using a pizza stone instead of a baking pan with edges. The stone can make those bottoms crispier, and if you want airier, you'll need to add more flour.
Weather? Humidity is dangerous for pizza. But in many ways, you are safer at home baking small batches in the kitchen—especially with that air conditioner blasting.
How about the sauce? We use San Marzanos, crush them up, throw in some salt/pepper, olive oil, a little oregano and tomato paste (perhaps a touch of sugar), and give it a whaz in the food processor.
We use a pizza stone and our pizzas take about 5 minutes total, in an oven that's probably around 500-550. We do put the fresh mozz (not buffalo, which just isn't worth the price) on last on our margheritas, but it still always gets watery.
So a little more flour might give us a puffier crust? Even on a stone? If so, I'd like to try it. Otherwise, our pizzas are pretty darned good.
I'm gonna convert his recipe into bakers percents, which is what a lot of us home pizza makers use to measure, and see what it comes up to.
@Fillippelli: Yes, 5-6 minutes is about all it takes. He said to cook the dough 10 minutes, then put on the toppings. That equals a dried out dough, period.
I strain the hell out of my mozzarella, both fior-di-latte and bufala, and put sauce, cheese and toppings on before firing in the oven. You're right in that the mutz can get a tad watery regardless.
@Erin Your baby is a thing of beauty to my eyes. As far as the wetness goes, I have found that chilling the cheese before cutting it into chunks allows the crust to bake more before the cheese melts down onto it, thus retaining more of the fat but creating a more well cooked crust. And there's less of of chance of you burning the cheese.
Here's the bakers percentages with respect to total flour*
100% Tipo 00 flour
59.2% water
0.17% yeast
3.5% salt (that's very salty!)
1.17% sugar
I'd skip on the sugar personally but otherwise the formula is pretty much 'by the book' as far as neapolitan is concerned. Yeast is quite low. I'd expect at room temperature about 20 hours fermentation time easily....
Regarding "Many flours already have traces of sugar," - this is slightly misleading I suspect. What is often added to US flour is diastatic barley malt which contains amylase enzymes to help break down the complex starches in the flour into sugars during fermentation (for the yeast to consume).
* Note that many pizza makers use percentages with respect to water instead but that just serves to confuse things here.
I'm so sad. I 'm there every day and the day they did THIS
I missed it....ha ha my luck :(
oh well
i'll just have to keep eating the pizza to repent for my sins
Gianluca Rottura http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
What's the advantage to using your KitchenAid on slow? The best bread makers I have even known used a giant Hobart on the fastest speed they had and got the job done in 2 minutes for about 100 lbs of dough.
As for letting it rest, I will still say that 10 minutes is long enough and plastic covering it just makes a mess. Get a giant stainless steel mixing bowl and put that over it. Works great.
5 hours of rest time?? That's crazy. Concentrate more on the sauce and less on the crust.
@Mooner Horses for courses. Developing dough using an intensive mix will give you a different result. Gluten will develop completely differently.
As for '5 hours rest times' (actually 6 in total) , the fermentation time is actually short compared to many pizzerias where dough rises overnight. I've heard the actual Keste pizzeria dough (as opposed to the adapted home version) rises for a good 18+ hours.
Long fermentation, if done right, can give you great flavour. Granted, I have my own reservations on some of the marathon 72+ hour refrigerated ferments I hear about, but anywhere between 12 and 36 is good in my book. Depends on the flavour profile you are looking for.
But as you say, if your particular focus is on the sauce, I guess developing crust flavour doesn't matter so much.
In the case of a neapolitan-style pizza, where ingredients are minimal, the quality of each component is going to make a big difference. You can't cover up a bland crust with spices, sweeteners or other additives.
@Mooner: 2 minutes for 100 pounds of dough? Is there an autolyse period before that intensive high speed mix?
@Foolish: I agree with your 12-36hr numbers, although places like Pizzeria Bianco use closer to an 8 hour rise.
In my limited first hand experience at 3 excellent bread bakeries (1 working at and 2 seeing their walk-ins and preparation process), gentle kneading and nothing less than an overnight rise in the walk-in was used to get the texture and developed flavor customers expected from the European style loaves.
Thanks everyone for the great dialogue! I just got off the phone with Roberto (he put down his dough ball for a second) and he wanted to clarify that this recipe is for the pizzaiolo still on training wheels. It's not the same one he uses at Keste, but an easier, adapted version. Also, make sure the tomato sauce goes on the dough before that initial 10-minute oven time. (I added that detail to the recipe above!)
@pauliegee: Grazie! What a compliment coming from the one and only Mister Gee. And thanks for the cheese intel.
@Mooner: If you mix the dough too fast, it will overheat. Roberto was big on the slow and gentle part.
@Takat: In the case of dry yeast, use a little bit less because it's stronger.
@Erin
I made an error in my earlier comment re: estimated 20 hour ferment.
0.17% yeast would indeed fall within the 5-6 fermentation time stated. (assuming room temperature). Sorry if that misled anyone.
Cool to hear clarification that Roberto's 'pizzeria formula' is indeed different (much longer fermentation time, I hear...) I was surprised at the level of salt.
Thanks again for that insightful article!
Oh, come on, "the dough will overheat???". You could turn your KitchenAid up to full blast and it wouldn't overheat. Remember, if you turn it on faster, you don't have to use it as long.
It thought the reason for all this long, long dough rising time was to "develop the dough", not for taste????
@Mooner
Long, slow *kneading* for developing the dough.
Long, slow fermentation (rising) for flavour.
'Overheating' the dough can mean that the dough is warmer than the DDT (desired dough temperature). Warmer dough = shorter rise. Can a mechanical mixer add heat? you betcha. Besides which, running a kitchen aid at full blast on a relatively stiff dough won't do the motor much good. Might be OK for a hobart (questionable), but the average KA would suffer!
@foolishpoolish: Thank you for the dough overheatage wisdom!
@nextgospel: Keste definitely wants to hold more classes but the problem is the teeny space. There's a sliver of a walkway near the kitchen, constantly congested with people from the class making pies, Roberto juggling other pies for normal diners, and the bathroom line. They're brainstorming a better formula, such as teaching during non-dinner hours.
Oh, and the tomatoes were Ciao brand. They are "San Marzano style," grown and packed in Italy.
This was a great article for me. I am a beginner Pizzaiolo and been trying to perfect my recipes and make better pizzas. I built a brick oven in my backyard but I am no Paulie Gee. My pizzas taste great but I can't seem to get the dough just right. Hopefully this recipe will help. I check Slice multiple times a day and I finally got enough courage to make a post and ask your opinions. I published a website for fellow pizza fans so maybe you guys can check it out and leave me some feedback. Its
This isn't a cheap plug for my website because I made it myself and dont have any advertisers or anything like that so I dont make money from your hits. I just truly want to make better pizza and share my experiences. Any feedback, tips, tricks, etc..about backyard pizza will be GREATLY appreciated.
@Alberto I've found Peter Reinhart's American Pie to be a great source for pizza dough recipes. I'd wish you luck but luck has nothing to do with it (as it says on my golf bag).
my pizzas only take 5 min in my oven at 500F - in the recipe it says to pt. 6 add tomato sauce to dough & bake 10min, but then says pt.7 to add tomato sauce & cheese??? i assume they mean only toppings - not more sauce?
should i add toppings halfway thru my 5 min bake time?
I gotta say that this guy is selling us a bill of goods. With that recipe you will never get a pie with the flavor and texture of a natural yeast recipe. It is almost the same recipe hawked on every food recipe site around the world. A natural yeast poolish is an absolute must.
Also I thought that the addition of sugar to the dough is against Vera Pizza Napoletana.
Wondering why ">http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm"> Varasano’s Pizza Recipe hasn't been mentioned. It has really taken my pies to another level. I am using a sourdough starter based on Nancy Silverton's grape based recipe. Also saw one I would like to try recently on Ruhlman's Blog that uses cabbage leaves to start the poolish.
@climbhighak
By your standards, >90% of neapolitan pizzas (in naples no less) would not taste all that great either...most use baker's yeast also.
Fermentation is the key. 'Natural yeast poolish' is rare in pizza-making and brings a whole set of different problems with it. You can use it - but you need to know how...which could not possibly be covered in a one day course.
The Varasano recipe (which you have cited more than once) barely scratches the surface with regards to dough/fermentation/crust. Try his crust the day AFTER you baked and you will likely get a pronounced sour flavour which would be considered by many to be unacceptable in a neapolitan pie.
As for sourdough starters based on grapes and cabbage - you can do that but honestly the best organisms for surviving in a flour/water-fed sourdough culture are the ones already present in the flour!
The Crazy Brit said: "you can do that but honestly the best organisms for surviving in a flour/water-fed sourdough culture are the ones already present in the flour!"
Yeppers, I agree.
From what I can gather about the class, it seems it was aimed at the beginning to intermediate home pizza maker. A natural/wild yeast starter is most definitely above this skill level.
A highly developed level of flavors can be acheived when using pre-ferments (Biga, Sponge, Poolish, etc) whose fermentation is started with Baker's Yeast. By the time the pre-ferment has spooled up, around 14-24 hours, is incorporated into the remainder of the dough bill to initiate further fermentation and final fermentation is complete, there can be a good deal of developed flavors in the finished crust, which is a different set of flavors than what a sourdough would impart to the finished crust.
I very recently heard from another very competent pizza maker, making him the fifth or so pizzamaker I have heard this from, that they feel the tanginess of some sourdough cultures clashes with the clean, subtle sweetness of a good tomato sauce. This is an interesting point and one I cannot disagree with.
That being said, I ultimately do prefer a sourdough crust, so much so that I took what was a very good Baker's Yeast leavened recipe, tossed it out the window and completely reformulated my pizzas to use a sourdough starter......putting me all the way back to square one, so to speak. Grrrrrrrrrrrr --PB
When feeding the sourdough, are you also "dumping off" some of the already existing culture to lessen the amount of active lactobacilli (and subsequently lowering the potential for over acidification of the wild yeast stock culture), are you splitting the culture into multiple containers or just using one container?
Just curious. Always good to see another wild yeast brother-in-arms! --K
"The recipe, adapted for normal, nonrestaurant kitchens"
IMO It is also woth noting that
Jeff Varasano is getting very mixed reviews and very inconsistent results apparently while trying to adapt his methods and move up the ladder from home amateur to professional retauranteur since he opened in March it seems.
Varasanos.com 3/6/09:
"As of today , I'd say that the pizza is at about 70% of where I want it to be. A good pie would be tier 1, but some of the pies coming out are clearly not near that. All the top places,especially those baking under 3 minutes, have consistency issues. Now that I'm in the biz, I can see why. But we are working hard every day to get better and more consistent."
Atlanta Magazine 7/1/2009:
“We’re going to be serving a lot better pizza soon,” he said.
@pizzablogger, I am dumping off extra poolish before each feeding. Unless of course I need a bunch of it for bread or pizza. When I feed I dump all but two cups of poolish. Then to that add about 1 1/4 cups KA bread flour and 1 cup warm water. Always dump the 2 reserved cups into a clean container at the feedings.
If trying to build up, I don't dump, but add in the same amount of flour/water as I have already developed poolish. Does that make sense? 4 cups poolish is fed with 2 cups water and about 2 1/2 cups flour.
I am doing all of this at home for home consumption so keep that in mind when looking at amounts. The Varasano recipe was such an eye opener for a home cook. Having so much pertinent information all in the same spot was wonderful.
Right now I am using the propane grill with a stone on it. Too hot even here to fire up the modified electric oven to 850F. So not getting the "leopard spotting" I would love to see. But still good results.
This is a very interesting string. There is pizza knowledge flying around everywhere. Could you help me with another topic? I was wondering, what is the best fermentation environment? After you make your dough, do you stick it right in the fridge, or do you just leave it out and cover it, or neither? Ive had dough dry out on me many times and its depressing. Any insight would be appreciated.
@Alberto
Many people use the fridge for convenience and because the temperature is regulated. Neapolitan style is often fermented at a 'cool' room temperature (60-70F) but the choice is yours.
Always keep the dough covered.
@FP - Thanks, I tried this recipe last night. Have you tried it yet? It turned out a little denser than I am used to. Right now it is sitting in my fridge because I was afraid of it drying out while I am at work so we’ll see what it looks like when I get home. It definitely seemed like a lot of salt when I was mixing and the yeast seemed minimal. I was using dry yeast. If I am reading this correctly then it would only be about 1/3 of a tablespoon. I added more, probably because I was scared, and it could be why my dough seemed heavy. Did this amount of yeast sound correct to you? Could too much yeast make dough heavy and dense? My previous recipes were far from perfect but I used at least a tablespoon for a similar amount of flour and water.
@Alberto
Hi! I've used a v. similar recipe (less salt, less yeast) and it worked OK.
1/3 tbsp=1tsp=~3g which is around the 0.17% mark
Actually that's high, because the recipe calls for fresh yeast. For IDY you should use less.
Anyway - I'm sure it will be fine. It will probably rise sooner than you might expect so keep an eye on it!
Cheers,
FP
Just got back from NY weekend and my first pizza at Keste. Truly great and I will be back! In the spirit of home oven shortcomings here is my solution: First turn on (gas) broiler with rack up high and let it heat up the oven a bit. Then toss the stretched dough with tomatoes into a screaming hot dry cast iron pan on the stove top. Immediately start laying on the mozz, basil and oil. In no time it's ready for the oven to finish it off in about a minute. Although there's pan involved, it's more like a genuine pizza, than any pan pizza you've had...
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41 Comments:
"pizza bones" = not worthy
Pizzablogger at 1:31PM on 07/21/09
:)
Pizzablogger at 1:42PM on 07/21/09
How about the sauce? We use San Marzanos, crush them up, throw in some salt/pepper, olive oil, a little oregano and tomato paste (perhaps a touch of sugar), and give it a whaz in the food processor.
We use a pizza stone and our pizzas take about 5 minutes total, in an oven that's probably around 500-550. We do put the fresh mozz (not buffalo, which just isn't worth the price) on last on our margheritas, but it still always gets watery.
So a little more flour might give us a puffier crust? Even on a stone? If so, I'd like to try it. Otherwise, our pizzas are pretty darned good.
Fillippelli the Cook at 2:33PM on 07/21/09
I'm gonna convert his recipe into bakers percents, which is what a lot of us home pizza makers use to measure, and see what it comes up to.
@Fillippelli: Yes, 5-6 minutes is about all it takes. He said to cook the dough 10 minutes, then put on the toppings. That equals a dried out dough, period.
I strain the hell out of my mozzarella, both fior-di-latte and bufala, and put sauce, cheese and toppings on before firing in the oven. You're right in that the mutz can get a tad watery regardless.
Pizzablogger at 2:53PM on 07/21/09
Ah, straining the mozz is a great idea. How do you go about that?
Fillippelli the Cook at 3:10PM on 07/21/09
@Erin Your baby is a thing of beauty to my eyes. As far as the wetness goes, I have found that chilling the cheese before cutting it into chunks allows the crust to bake more before the cheese melts down onto it, thus retaining more of the fat but creating a more well cooked crust. And there's less of of chance of you burning the cheese.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 3:29PM on 07/21/09
yum. when is the next class?
nithya at hungrydesi at 3:39PM on 07/21/09
Here's the bakers percentages with respect to total flour*
100% Tipo 00 flour
59.2% water
0.17% yeast
3.5% salt (that's very salty!)
1.17% sugar
I'd skip on the sugar personally but otherwise the formula is pretty much 'by the book' as far as neapolitan is concerned. Yeast is quite low. I'd expect at room temperature about 20 hours fermentation time easily....
Regarding "Many flours already have traces of sugar," - this is slightly misleading I suspect. What is often added to US flour is diastatic barley malt which contains amylase enzymes to help break down the complex starches in the flour into sugars during fermentation (for the yeast to consume).
* Note that many pizza makers use percentages with respect to water instead but that just serves to confuse things here.
foolishpoolish at 5:06PM on 07/21/09
Oh and I forgot to add - great article and fab pictures.
Thanks Erin!
What a thrill to get to make pizza with a great pizzaiolo and fantastic WFO!
FP
foolishpoolish at 5:13PM on 07/21/09
Yes Erin, very good article and it must have been a ton of fun. The pictures have made me hungry! :)
Pizzablogger at 5:16PM on 07/21/09
Fantastic article..Now you need to put it on video set to Dean Martin singin "thats amore"..oh yeah
L.A. Pizza Maven at 6:38PM on 07/21/09
I'm so sad. I 'm there every day and the day they did THIS
I missed it....ha ha my luck :(
oh well
i'll just have to keep eating the pizza to repent for my sins
Gianluca Rottura
http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
PS BRAVO Robe'''"""""""""
nextgospel at 8:27PM on 07/21/09
What's the advantage to using your KitchenAid on slow? The best bread makers I have even known used a giant Hobart on the fastest speed they had and got the job done in 2 minutes for about 100 lbs of dough.
As for letting it rest, I will still say that 10 minutes is long enough and plastic covering it just makes a mess. Get a giant stainless steel mixing bowl and put that over it. Works great.
5 hours of rest time?? That's crazy. Concentrate more on the sauce and less on the crust.
Mooner at 10:35PM on 07/21/09
@Mooner Horses for courses. Developing dough using an intensive mix will give you a different result. Gluten will develop completely differently.
As for '5 hours rest times' (actually 6 in total) , the fermentation time is actually short compared to many pizzerias where dough rises overnight. I've heard the actual Keste pizzeria dough (as opposed to the adapted home version) rises for a good 18+ hours.
Long fermentation, if done right, can give you great flavour. Granted, I have my own reservations on some of the marathon 72+ hour refrigerated ferments I hear about, but anywhere between 12 and 36 is good in my book. Depends on the flavour profile you are looking for.
But as you say, if your particular focus is on the sauce, I guess developing crust flavour doesn't matter so much.
In the case of a neapolitan-style pizza, where ingredients are minimal, the quality of each component is going to make a big difference. You can't cover up a bland crust with spices, sweeteners or other additives.
FP
foolishpoolish at 11:16PM on 07/21/09
@Mooner: 2 minutes for 100 pounds of dough? Is there an autolyse period before that intensive high speed mix?
@Foolish: I agree with your 12-36hr numbers, although places like Pizzeria Bianco use closer to an 8 hour rise.
In my limited first hand experience at 3 excellent bread bakeries (1 working at and 2 seeing their walk-ins and preparation process), gentle kneading and nothing less than an overnight rise in the walk-in was used to get the texture and developed flavor customers expected from the European style loaves.
Pizzablogger at 7:07AM on 07/22/09
How much dry yeast should you use?
Takat at 8:19AM on 07/22/09
Thanks everyone for the great dialogue! I just got off the phone with Roberto (he put down his dough ball for a second) and he wanted to clarify that this recipe is for the pizzaiolo still on training wheels. It's not the same one he uses at Keste, but an easier, adapted version. Also, make sure the tomato sauce goes on the dough before that initial 10-minute oven time. (I added that detail to the recipe above!)
@pauliegee: Grazie! What a compliment coming from the one and only Mister Gee. And thanks for the cheese intel.
@Mooner: If you mix the dough too fast, it will overheat. Roberto was big on the slow and gentle part.
@Takat: In the case of dry yeast, use a little bit less because it's stronger.
Erin Zimmer at 6:39PM on 07/22/09
@Erin
I made an error in my earlier comment re: estimated 20 hour ferment.
0.17% yeast would indeed fall within the 5-6 fermentation time stated. (assuming room temperature). Sorry if that misled anyone.
Cool to hear clarification that Roberto's 'pizzeria formula' is indeed different (much longer fermentation time, I hear...) I was surprised at the level of salt.
Thanks again for that insightful article!
FP
foolishpoolish at 7:48PM on 07/22/09
@Erin,
Oh, come on, "the dough will overheat???". You could turn your KitchenAid up to full blast and it wouldn't overheat. Remember, if you turn it on faster, you don't have to use it as long.
It thought the reason for all this long, long dough rising time was to "develop the dough", not for taste????
Mooner at 9:20PM on 07/22/09
@Mooner
Long, slow *kneading* for developing the dough.
Long, slow fermentation (rising) for flavour.
'Overheating' the dough can mean that the dough is warmer than the DDT (desired dough temperature). Warmer dough = shorter rise. Can a mechanical mixer add heat? you betcha. Besides which, running a kitchen aid at full blast on a relatively stiff dough won't do the motor much good. Might be OK for a hobart (questionable), but the average KA would suffer!
FP
foolishpoolish at 9:37PM on 07/22/09
@foolishpoolish: Thank you for the dough overheatage wisdom!
@nextgospel: Keste definitely wants to hold more classes but the problem is the teeny space. There's a sliver of a walkway near the kitchen, constantly congested with people from the class making pies, Roberto juggling other pies for normal diners, and the bathroom line. They're brainstorming a better formula, such as teaching during non-dinner hours.
Oh, and the tomatoes were Ciao brand. They are "San Marzano style," grown and packed in Italy.
Erin Zimmer at 11:38PM on 07/22/09
"Caporuscio offered some of the pizzaiolo newbies jobs last night after checking out the beautiful pies."
Erin, you apparently don't know Italian men very well.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 8:07AM on 07/23/09
@paulie: *Looks confused.* It was so weird. Only the ladies were getting job offers..
Erin Zimmer at 12:20PM on 07/23/09
"It was so weird. Only the ladies were getting job offers."
Shocking.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 12:53PM on 07/23/09
This was a great article for me. I am a beginner Pizzaiolo and been trying to perfect my recipes and make better pizzas. I built a brick oven in my backyard but I am no Paulie Gee. My pizzas taste great but I can't seem to get the dough just right. Hopefully this recipe will help. I check Slice multiple times a day and I finally got enough courage to make a post and ask your opinions. I published a website for fellow pizza fans so maybe you guys can check it out and leave me some feedback. Its
www.forzapizza.com
This isn't a cheap plug for my website because I made it myself and dont have any advertisers or anything like that so I dont make money from your hits. I just truly want to make better pizza and share my experiences. Any feedback, tips, tricks, etc..about backyard pizza will be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks,
Alberto
forzapizza at 1:17PM on 07/23/09
@Alberto I've found Peter Reinhart's American Pie to be a great source for pizza dough recipes. I'd wish you luck but luck has nothing to do with it (as it says on my golf bag).
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 2:33PM on 07/23/09
my pizzas only take 5 min in my oven at 500F - in the recipe it says to pt. 6 add tomato sauce to dough & bake 10min, but then says pt.7 to add tomato sauce & cheese??? i assume they mean only toppings - not more sauce?
should i add toppings halfway thru my 5 min bake time?
kimchee at 10:12AM on 07/25/09
I gotta say that this guy is selling us a bill of goods. With that recipe you will never get a pie with the flavor and texture of a natural yeast recipe. It is almost the same recipe hawked on every food recipe site around the world. A natural yeast poolish is an absolute must.
Also I thought that the addition of sugar to the dough is against Vera Pizza Napoletana.
Wondering why ">http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm"> Varasano’s Pizza Recipe hasn't been mentioned. It has really taken my pies to another level. I am using a sourdough starter based on Nancy Silverton's grape based recipe. Also saw one I would like to try recently on Ruhlman's Blog that uses cabbage leaves to start the poolish.
climbhighak at 5:55PM on 08/05/09
@climbhighak
By your standards, >90% of neapolitan pizzas (in naples no less) would not taste all that great either...most use baker's yeast also.
Fermentation is the key. 'Natural yeast poolish' is rare in pizza-making and brings a whole set of different problems with it. You can use it - but you need to know how...which could not possibly be covered in a one day course.
The Varasano recipe (which you have cited more than once) barely scratches the surface with regards to dough/fermentation/crust. Try his crust the day AFTER you baked and you will likely get a pronounced sour flavour which would be considered by many to be unacceptable in a neapolitan pie.
As for sourdough starters based on grapes and cabbage - you can do that but honestly the best organisms for surviving in a flour/water-fed sourdough culture are the ones already present in the flour!
FP
foolishpoolish at 6:12PM on 08/05/09
The Crazy Brit said: "you can do that but honestly the best organisms for surviving in a flour/water-fed sourdough culture are the ones already present in the flour!"
Yeppers, I agree.
From what I can gather about the class, it seems it was aimed at the beginning to intermediate home pizza maker. A natural/wild yeast starter is most definitely above this skill level.
A highly developed level of flavors can be acheived when using pre-ferments (Biga, Sponge, Poolish, etc) whose fermentation is started with Baker's Yeast. By the time the pre-ferment has spooled up, around 14-24 hours, is incorporated into the remainder of the dough bill to initiate further fermentation and final fermentation is complete, there can be a good deal of developed flavors in the finished crust, which is a different set of flavors than what a sourdough would impart to the finished crust.
I very recently heard from another very competent pizza maker, making him the fifth or so pizzamaker I have heard this from, that they feel the tanginess of some sourdough cultures clashes with the clean, subtle sweetness of a good tomato sauce. This is an interesting point and one I cannot disagree with.
That being said, I ultimately do prefer a sourdough crust, so much so that I took what was a very good Baker's Yeast leavened recipe, tossed it out the window and completely reformulated my pizzas to use a sourdough starter......putting me all the way back to square one, so to speak. Grrrrrrrrrrrr --PB
Pizzablogger at 6:44PM on 08/05/09
@foolishpoolish, Just to clarify, I do also use a bit of instant dry yeast in the mix. IDY for bubbles and sourdough for flavor.
@Pizzablogger, when getting the "sourdough" ready for use, I am feeding it three times a day which really mellows the sour flavor.
Shall I write it on the chalkboard. I promise to not drink and post.
climbhighak at 1:59AM on 08/06/09
@Climbhighak: Drinking and posting is more fun!
When feeding the sourdough, are you also "dumping off" some of the already existing culture to lessen the amount of active lactobacilli (and subsequently lowering the potential for over acidification of the wild yeast stock culture), are you splitting the culture into multiple containers or just using one container?
Just curious. Always good to see another wild yeast brother-in-arms! --K
Pizzablogger at 7:16AM on 08/06/09
Re:climbhighak at 5:55PM on 08/05/09
If you read the article it clearly states:
"The recipe, adapted for normal, nonrestaurant kitchens"
IMO It is also woth noting that
Jeff Varasano is getting very mixed reviews and very inconsistent results apparently while trying to adapt his methods and move up the ladder from home amateur to professional retauranteur since he opened in March it seems.
Varasanos.com 3/6/09:
"As of today , I'd say that the pizza is at about 70% of where I want it to be. A good pie would be tier 1, but some of the pies coming out are clearly not near that. All the top places,especially those baking under 3 minutes, have consistency issues. Now that I'm in the biz, I can see why. But we are working hard every day to get better and more consistent."
Atlanta Magazine 7/1/2009:
“We’re going to be serving a lot better pizza soon,” he said.
I hope to try it someday "soon"
seriouspizza at 1:34PM on 08/06/09
@pizzablogger, I am dumping off extra poolish before each feeding. Unless of course I need a bunch of it for bread or pizza. When I feed I dump all but two cups of poolish. Then to that add about 1 1/4 cups KA bread flour and 1 cup warm water. Always dump the 2 reserved cups into a clean container at the feedings.
If trying to build up, I don't dump, but add in the same amount of flour/water as I have already developed poolish. Does that make sense? 4 cups poolish is fed with 2 cups water and about 2 1/2 cups flour.
I am doing all of this at home for home consumption so keep that in mind when looking at amounts. The Varasano recipe was such an eye opener for a home cook. Having so much pertinent information all in the same spot was wonderful.
Right now I am using the propane grill with a stone on it. Too hot even here to fire up the modified electric oven to 850F. So not getting the "leopard spotting" I would love to see. But still good results.
climbhighak at 3:41PM on 08/06/09
This is a very interesting string. There is pizza knowledge flying around everywhere. Could you help me with another topic? I was wondering, what is the best fermentation environment? After you make your dough, do you stick it right in the fridge, or do you just leave it out and cover it, or neither? Ive had dough dry out on me many times and its depressing. Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks and Forza Pizza,
Alberto
forzapizza at 4:22PM on 08/07/09
@Alberto
Many people use the fridge for convenience and because the temperature is regulated. Neapolitan style is often fermented at a 'cool' room temperature (60-70F) but the choice is yours.
Always keep the dough covered.
FP
foolishpoolish at 5:09PM on 08/07/09
@FP - Thanks, I tried this recipe last night. Have you tried it yet? It turned out a little denser than I am used to. Right now it is sitting in my fridge because I was afraid of it drying out while I am at work so we’ll see what it looks like when I get home. It definitely seemed like a lot of salt when I was mixing and the yeast seemed minimal. I was using dry yeast. If I am reading this correctly then it would only be about 1/3 of a tablespoon. I added more, probably because I was scared, and it could be why my dough seemed heavy. Did this amount of yeast sound correct to you? Could too much yeast make dough heavy and dense? My previous recipes were far from perfect but I used at least a tablespoon for a similar amount of flour and water.
Thanks and Forza Pizza!
-Alberto
forzapizza at 10:17AM on 08/13/09
@Alberto
Hi! I've used a v. similar recipe (less salt, less yeast) and it worked OK.
1/3 tbsp=1tsp=~3g which is around the 0.17% mark
Actually that's high, because the recipe calls for fresh yeast. For IDY you should use less.
Anyway - I'm sure it will be fine. It will probably rise sooner than you might expect so keep an eye on it!
Cheers,
FP
foolishpoolish at 11:13AM on 08/13/09
Just got back from NY weekend and my first pizza at Keste. Truly great and I will be back! In the spirit of home oven shortcomings here is my solution: First turn on (gas) broiler with rack up high and let it heat up the oven a bit. Then toss the stretched dough with tomatoes into a screaming hot dry cast iron pan on the stove top. Immediately start laying on the mozz, basil and oil. In no time it's ready for the oven to finish it off in about a minute. Although there's pan involved, it's more like a genuine pizza, than any pan pizza you've had...
Frankidadio at 11:16AM on 08/24/09
Great article. Roberto is a nice man, I wish him all the best.
jeffsayyes at 10:14PM on 09/21/09
Hi,
Can anyone help me convert this to standard measurements.
Ingredients
3.75 pounds Tipo "00" flour
1 liter warm water
0.1 ounce fresh yeast
2.1 ounces salt
0.7 ounce sugar (optional)
Having problems with the OZ measurements to Teaspoons. Please help, have been experimenting with recipes four dough and would like to try this one...
Thanks
Todd
tkaywood at 4:54PM on 09/22/09