If I Could Only Eat at One NYC Pizzeria (Other Than Di Fara), What Would It Be?
Posted by Adam Kuban, September 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Hi, Adam,
I will finally get to come to NYC in the week just prior to Thanksgiving this year. Really looking forward to it, as it may be the only time I ever get to visit your city.
That said, I have earmarked Di Fara for a visit, and I am hoping to visit one other pizzeria during my stay.
There are so many good ones.
So ... can I get a single recommendation plus one backup recommendation from you?
One stop (with Di Fara already out of the running) for pizza anywhere in NYC.
Bonus if it is a coal-fired oven—not available in my area whatsoever
Bonus if, in addition to a standard pie/slice, I can also get a grandma pie/slice
Bonus if, in addition to a standard pie/slice, I can also get a Sicilian pie/slice
Bonus if they are open a LOT of hours, since scheduling is gonna get hairy
Not interested for this one visit in artisanal pies—looking for classic NYC pizza. Doesn’t matter if I can’t order by the slice, since, for this one visit, I am willing to pay for a whole pie or whatever.
Your only other pizza experience in NYC other than Di Fara—and there's a chance this may be your only visit to the Big Apple?!? Yeah. Talk about performance anxiety.
I'm going to open this up to the homeslices out there after first trying to get you something good ...
Sac's Place, Astoria
A pepperoni-and-mushroom pie from Sac's Place. [Photographs: Adam Kuban]
I originally starting writing a very different post that had Sac's Place as a dark horse, but then I called to see if they had grandma pies. They do. That means you can indeed go to one place for coal-oven, grandma, and Sicilian. And Sac's does them all by-the-slice.
The caveat is that you'll have to leave Manhattan to eat here, but I know your background, TJ, and am guessing you're up for it—as long as you have the time to do it. Fortunately, Sac's is in Astoria, Queens, only about a half-hour subway ride from the nexus of Manhattan transit (Times Square/42nd Street).
Sac's makes a very good coal-oven whole pie (though it's a little thicker than most places and maybe a little more loaded with stuff). The thing with Sac's is that they have a coal oven and a separate, regular gas-fired oven. I believe they initially cook their slice pies in the coal oven and then do reheats in the gas oven. So just ask and make sure which oven your pizza has been/will be cooked in.
If your first concern is coal-oven goodness, what about Patsy's in East Harlem? It's coal-oven, you can get by-the-slice if you want, but I would advise getting the whole pie, since it's better to get it cooked to order. You have your choice of fresh mozzarella or regular mozzarella, so you can fancy it up a bit if you want or keep it pretty standard NYC pizza-y.
Patsy's is still my favorite coal-oven place in Manhattan—and maybe the city—even though it can sometimes be inconsistent. But not only is it great when it's on, it has that old-school New York vibe to it that really makes it a treat. Caveat pizzaeater: It is often inconsistent. Did I mention that? Ask for your pie well-done to ensure that it's crisp.
Unfortunately, there are no square pies at Patsy's.
2287 First Avenue, New York NY 10035 (117th/118th streets; map); 212-534-9783; patsyspizzeriany.com
Non-Coal-Oven, Old-School Awesome Slices
There are two places that really epitomize the New York slice for me and that come to mind immediately when I think "old-school, totally New York pizzeria experience," and they are Sal and Carmine's on Manhattan's Upper West Side (this one is easy to get to) and Louie & Ernie's in The Bronx's Pelham Bay neighborhood (you'll probably want a car to do this one). Of the two, I'm a bigger fan of Louie & Ernie's—especially for its sausage pie, which is killer. But Sal and Carmine's will do you right, too. Here's Ed Levine on Sal and Carmine's and me on Louie & Ernie's. (You can find location info at those links.)
Some Questions for You, TJ
That all said, where are you staying? Will you be driving? How far are you willing to go? These are all factors I usually like to know before recommending something. I know your background, so I know you are not lazy when it comes to fooding, so I'm guessing obscure places won't be so much of a bother—if you have time to make the trek.
Hope that helps and hasta la pizza,
Adam
------------------------------------------------------------
Slice Readers: Respond!
OK, so now I'll open this up to all the rest of the folks out there. Are my choices bogus? If so, please let TJ know where you'd go. And, please, for this one, let's have answers that go beyond the name of the place. If TJ is only visiting this once, you've gotta make a strong case for your pick.
Coal oven is always nice, but in my mind "classic NYC" pizza isn't from a coal oven, despite Lombardi's. In fact, your best bet to get a traditional slice, a sicilian slice, and a grandma slice is, well, just about any corner pizza joint.
All that said, I haven't been to Sac's, but this photo and write-up makes me want to head to Astoria during my next trip back east.
I'd head to Artichoke. Their slice is excellent and their Sicilian is close to a Grandma slice, so get two and call one a Sicilian and one a Grandma. Just stay away from that spinach and artichoke thing at all cost. It ain't pizza, it's chip dip on dough heated in the oven.
I'm heading to Brooklyn tomorrow. I may have to make a detour to get some of Sac's slices (sans the pepperoni of course). That is some fine lookin' pizza.
@brokenbuzz: You bring up a good point. Yes, TJ is sort of asking for two different things (or perhaps for something that doesn't exist)—a coal-oven-cooked "classic NYC slice." Once you get into coal-oven, you're in a different realm from the "classic everyday NYC slice." That's why I tried to give some of those in addition to the coaler suggestions.
@lpantin: Yeah. I think TJ is not going to go to Kesté. That's "artisanal."
Sac's is good! I need to get back. It's been a while since I've done a whole pie there. I've done slices only the last few times I've been there.
Why not hit a Scott's Pizza Tour? The walking tour hits three spots and the bus tour (Sundays only) hits four. If you're gonna spend 30 minutes each way going to Queens and an hour eating, what's another hour on the walking tour? I've been on both tours and the variety of slices is great (on the last bus tour I took, we hit 2 coal ovens, a sicilian stop and one of the artisanal joints).
In the interest of full disclosure, I am a friend of Scott's, but I've been on the tour with non-friends who absolutely loved it. He's got a perfect five star rating on Yelp and is the number 2 NYC activity on Trip Advisor (take that, lady liberty).
Anywho, that's my $.02 - you may now return to your regularly scheduled slice enjoyment.
This is a bit of work if you aren't staying in brooklyn and/or won't have access to a car but it's as good a combo as you will find anywhere.
1. Hit the original Coney Island Totonno's first for insanely good coal oven pizza (assuming they reopen by then).
2. Take the N train one stop (it might be easier to just walk instead -- about a mile and a half north) to Spumoni Gardens for a good grandma slice and some good spumoni in a classic Bensonhurst setting.
Lombardi's or Grimaldi's are always safe bets in my book. Yeah, they aren't exactly secrets and there's often a bit of a wait, but there's a reason for that. The pizzas are top notch. And at Lombardi's you get to eat a little bit of American pizza history.
Tough tough choice. Lombardi's and Grimaldi's obviously come to mind first, but they aren't amazingly consistent with all the crowds. Absolutely disgaree with Artichoke on all counts.
JUSt a few
NY SLICE...joe's pizza, vinnie vincenz among others
neapolitan...keste
coal oven...patsy in east harlem (NOT any other patsy's)
gianluca
pizzaandcoffee.com
you can get square slices at DiFara's
but Totonno's is in a great retarded neighborhood, and he'd have a better experience overall. more of the same at S&B
What you are looking for is New Park pizza on cross bay blvd in howard beach. they have brick oven pizza that is not houty touty bull.
If you come into jfk it is right there.
@passion4pizza. I've never really used the term "grandma slice", so maybe I'm incorrect in my usage...but i thought it applies to the square slices at L&B.
Heres the link to the Slice review.
@engmcmuffin: Nope, a grandma slice is not the same as a sicilian slice. If I say so myself, we described the difference pretty well at this link...
@pauliegee and mike: for some reason, I have been thinking about New Park since I saw this post in the first place. I've gotta go there really soon... :)
I only went to Louie and Ernie's once, but it was great. I don't like any of the other suggestions except Patsy's in Harlem. As stated, due to inconsistencies, you often get an inferior pie at Patsy's. Too bad La Marionetta isn't around anymore. It was the best in NYC.
I've had some disappointing pizza at Sac's in the past, but the pizza in this picture makes me want to run out and try it again - really gorgeous looking pie there. I will definitely have to check it out again to see if what I experienced was just a fluke or what.
I've always thought of the l&b square as a kind of a hybrid between the two since it tastes (and looks from above) more like a grandma than a sicilian even if it is a thicker than the standard. Hell, my favorite grandma slice in my neighborhood is even thicker than those are (and yes, they list it as grandma on the menu).
christ, now I have to check out new park too. thanks for getting that in my head.
If I had to recommend another NY pizza joint besides DiFara, I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about *anywhere* that I've been. It really also depends, where is this visitor coming from, and what are their expectations? How discriminating are they? What kind of pizza have they had before?
First of all at DiFara's the pizza will be fabulously great, unless he cooks it in the top oven. I've consistently had inferior slices from the top oven. The crust is either not hardened enough by the cooking, or it turns into a 'cracker' without browning.
I enjoyed Sal & Carmine's but I reserve judgment if I have occasion to get a whole pie rather than a slice. It is still not the pizza I recall from my childhood outside of Boston, which was cooked by Italian immigrants in DeMarco's generation (all now long-retired).
Bleecker St pizza is my current top favorite in Manhattan, but *only* for the regular slice, not the wretched "Nonna Maria" stuff (contrary to what some people with bad taste say). The regular slice is pretty good, not great. There is something slightly off-putting about it, but anyway, NYC is totally bereft of good pizza.
I haven't been to the original Patsy's in a few years, but even then I found it was not as good as it was a few years earlier. I've heard good things (first hand) about Totonno's but haven't made the trek yet.
Artichoke Basille is ok, not great. It was inconsistent when I was going there. I want to support them but I think I threw away a few regular slices which were barely edible. I don't know if they use the same dough recipe as DiFara but if they do, then either their technique is bad or inconsistent or their oven is not hot enough. I cannot for the life of me order one of those steakhouse creamed spinach slices.
Most of my pizza experience is in greater Boston, where pizza like DiFara was the norm and not the exception, minus the "messy" artisinal aspect which I do like because it is quirky and great. I live in NY now and I find it amazing that NYers put up with such terrible pizza from almost every single place; and reflect on how sad it is that only DiFara still exists. Granted it is the same in Boston now, too, and doubtless many other places. Don't even mention Chicago, yuck!!!
I think the generation of Italian immigrants who made pizza in the 60s and 70s had enough knowledge and connections back in the old country to get the right ingredients. And I think now the people making pizza just don't care.
Vic's Pizza Gravesend Brooklyn, meatball hero with sauce one of a kind. Made by Vic's mom supposedly in the kitchen. small place, but old school square slices that make you feel well. Considering the fact that L&B squares seem smaller nowadays than back in the glorious 1980's, Vic's is a nice sized square.
If you haven't already left NYC, I recommend a place called Italia Pizza in the Bensonhurst/Gravesend area of Brooklyn. Like Di Fara, it is located on a street corner, but obviously not the same one. It's a family owned shop. Their ovens are made of steel as well. That's where the similarities end though. At Di Fara's, Dom is the only one making the pies. Not the case here, but it is still a great slice. Nor, do they finish the pie with fresh basil, oil, or more cheese. While Di Fara's looks like a hole in the wall pizza joint, the decor at Italia is much more modern and updated. You can get a regular slice, along with both, Sicilian and grandma slices. If I remember correctly, their hours are from 11/11:30AM to the earliest closing around 10PM.
If you're willing to trek out there, this place is on Kings Highway and West 6TH Street. To get there, you take the N train to Kings Highway in Brooklyn. If you are coming in from Manhattan, you would have to be in, or near the last car. From there, once you are out of the station, make a right, that corner would be Kings Highway and West 7TH Street. Walk down one more block, and you will find yourself on the diagonal corner of the restaurant. Their Sicilian slices are good, but grandma slices are phenomenal, if you like thin, crispy crusts for your slices. I usually get the grandma slices for $2.50.
Other than Di Fara's, that is the only pizzeria I would go out of my way for.
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34 Comments:
Coal oven is always nice, but in my mind "classic NYC" pizza isn't from a coal oven, despite Lombardi's. In fact, your best bet to get a traditional slice, a sicilian slice, and a grandma slice is, well, just about any corner pizza joint.
All that said, I haven't been to Sac's, but this photo and write-up makes me want to head to Astoria during my next trip back east.
brokenbuzz at 4:55PM on 09/08/09
please please please DON'T go to keste!
lpantin at 5:09PM on 09/08/09
That pizza in the Sac's photo looks insanely good.
ratbuddy at 5:09PM on 09/08/09
I'd head to Artichoke. Their slice is excellent and their Sicilian is close to a Grandma slice, so get two and call one a Sicilian and one a Grandma. Just stay away from that spinach and artichoke thing at all cost. It ain't pizza, it's chip dip on dough heated in the oven.
I'm heading to Brooklyn tomorrow. I may have to make a detour to get some of Sac's slices (sans the pepperoni of course). That is some fine lookin' pizza.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 5:15PM on 09/08/09
@brokenbuzz: You bring up a good point. Yes, TJ is sort of asking for two different things (or perhaps for something that doesn't exist)—a coal-oven-cooked "classic NYC slice." Once you get into coal-oven, you're in a different realm from the "classic everyday NYC slice." That's why I tried to give some of those in addition to the coaler suggestions.
@lpantin: Yeah. I think TJ is not going to go to Kesté. That's "artisanal."
Sac's is good! I need to get back. It's been a while since I've done a whole pie there. I've done slices only the last few times I've been there.
Adam Kuban at 5:30PM on 09/08/09
Why not hit a Scott's Pizza Tour? The walking tour hits three spots and the bus tour (Sundays only) hits four. If you're gonna spend 30 minutes each way going to Queens and an hour eating, what's another hour on the walking tour? I've been on both tours and the variety of slices is great (on the last bus tour I took, we hit 2 coal ovens, a sicilian stop and one of the artisanal joints).
In the interest of full disclosure, I am a friend of Scott's, but I've been on the tour with non-friends who absolutely loved it. He's got a perfect five star rating on Yelp and is the number 2 NYC activity on Trip Advisor (take that, lady liberty).
Anywho, that's my $.02 - you may now return to your regularly scheduled slice enjoyment.
pizzaPlease at 6:57PM on 09/08/09
This is a bit of work if you aren't staying in brooklyn and/or won't have access to a car but it's as good a combo as you will find anywhere.
1. Hit the original Coney Island Totonno's first for insanely good coal oven pizza (assuming they reopen by then).
2. Take the N train one stop (it might be easier to just walk instead -- about a mile and a half north) to Spumoni Gardens for a good grandma slice and some good spumoni in a classic Bensonhurst setting.
sloppy at 7:30PM on 09/08/09
Lombardi's or Grimaldi's are always safe bets in my book. Yeah, they aren't exactly secrets and there's often a bit of a wait, but there's a reason for that. The pizzas are top notch. And at Lombardi's you get to eat a little bit of American pizza history.
egadman at 7:52PM on 09/08/09
Please head to Dani's in Kew Gardens, Queens. It's right at the Kew Gardens LIRR station, open late, and the perfect! new york slice.
snakeyb at 8:28PM on 09/08/09
Second artichoke. Sicilian slice is amazing.
dg1062 at 9:19PM on 09/08/09
Tough tough choice. Lombardi's and Grimaldi's obviously come to mind first, but they aren't amazingly consistent with all the crowds. Absolutely disgaree with Artichoke on all counts.
ginsbera at 10:19PM on 09/08/09
No rec's here, I'm not in NY, I'm just so happy to see that I'm not the only pizza nut around!
TJ, good luck on your hunt and let us all know how it goes!
ohiogal at 10:23PM on 09/08/09
@ginsbera. So you like the chip dip slice at Artichoke?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 10:32PM on 09/08/09
L&B Spumoni Gardens. Especially for the grandma slices.
engmcmuffin at 10:34PM on 09/08/09
JUSt a few
NY SLICE...joe's pizza, vinnie vincenz among others
neapolitan...keste
coal oven...patsy in east harlem (NOT any other patsy's)
gianluca
pizzaandcoffee.com
nextgospel at 10:35PM on 09/08/09
i'm with Sloppy and EngMc
Totonno's and/or S&B
you can get square slices at DiFara's
but Totonno's is in a great retarded neighborhood, and he'd have a better experience overall. more of the same at S&B
norman at 12:06AM on 09/09/09
What you are looking for is New Park pizza on cross bay blvd in howard beach. they have brick oven pizza that is not houty touty bull.
If you come into jfk it is right there.
mike youallwilldrown flood at 8:30AM on 09/09/09
@Sloppy and EngMc: Have I been out of Brooklyn too long? When did L&B start serving Grandma's?
passion4pizza at 8:36AM on 09/09/09
@passion4pizza. I've never really used the term "grandma slice", so maybe I'm incorrect in my usage...but i thought it applies to the square slices at L&B.
Heres the link to the Slice review.
engmcmuffin at 9:33AM on 09/09/09
A-f**kin'-men, Mike. Best traditional NY slice in the city. Or anywhere for that matter. And it goes great with their fruit punch.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 11:24AM on 09/09/09
Definitely L&B Spumoni Gardens for their Sicilian slices or pies!
hunrgy at 1:27PM on 09/09/09
@engmcmuffin: Nope, a grandma slice is not the same as a sicilian slice. If I say so myself, we described the difference pretty well at this link...
@pauliegee and mike: for some reason, I have been thinking about New Park since I saw this post in the first place. I've gotta go there really soon... :)
passion4pizza at 2:45PM on 09/09/09
I only went to Louie and Ernie's once, but it was great. I don't like any of the other suggestions except Patsy's in Harlem. As stated, due to inconsistencies, you often get an inferior pie at Patsy's. Too bad La Marionetta isn't around anymore. It was the best in NYC.
Franke at 2:52PM on 09/09/09
I've had some disappointing pizza at Sac's in the past, but the pizza in this picture makes me want to run out and try it again - really gorgeous looking pie there. I will definitely have to check it out again to see if what I experienced was just a fluke or what.
megc at 3:53PM on 09/09/09
ill throw down another vote for artichoke!
nycdailydeals at 4:12PM on 09/09/09
I've always thought of the l&b square as a kind of a hybrid between the two since it tastes (and looks from above) more like a grandma than a sicilian even if it is a thicker than the standard. Hell, my favorite grandma slice in my neighborhood is even thicker than those are (and yes, they list it as grandma on the menu).
christ, now I have to check out new park too. thanks for getting that in my head.
sloppy at 6:01PM on 09/09/09
Yes I also hate Artichoke and fail to see what all the fuss is about. There is a perfectly fabulous slice 2 blocks away at Mariella's on 3rd and 16th.
spartana07 at 7:10PM on 09/09/09
Guess where I am? Check my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/pauliegee
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:15PM on 09/09/09
If I had to recommend another NY pizza joint besides DiFara, I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about *anywhere* that I've been. It really also depends, where is this visitor coming from, and what are their expectations? How discriminating are they? What kind of pizza have they had before?
First of all at DiFara's the pizza will be fabulously great, unless he cooks it in the top oven. I've consistently had inferior slices from the top oven. The crust is either not hardened enough by the cooking, or it turns into a 'cracker' without browning.
I enjoyed Sal & Carmine's but I reserve judgment if I have occasion to get a whole pie rather than a slice. It is still not the pizza I recall from my childhood outside of Boston, which was cooked by Italian immigrants in DeMarco's generation (all now long-retired).
Bleecker St pizza is my current top favorite in Manhattan, but *only* for the regular slice, not the wretched "Nonna Maria" stuff (contrary to what some people with bad taste say). The regular slice is pretty good, not great. There is something slightly off-putting about it, but anyway, NYC is totally bereft of good pizza.
I haven't been to the original Patsy's in a few years, but even then I found it was not as good as it was a few years earlier. I've heard good things (first hand) about Totonno's but haven't made the trek yet.
Artichoke Basille is ok, not great. It was inconsistent when I was going there. I want to support them but I think I threw away a few regular slices which were barely edible. I don't know if they use the same dough recipe as DiFara but if they do, then either their technique is bad or inconsistent or their oven is not hot enough. I cannot for the life of me order one of those steakhouse creamed spinach slices.
Most of my pizza experience is in greater Boston, where pizza like DiFara was the norm and not the exception, minus the "messy" artisinal aspect which I do like because it is quirky and great. I live in NY now and I find it amazing that NYers put up with such terrible pizza from almost every single place; and reflect on how sad it is that only DiFara still exists. Granted it is the same in Boston now, too, and doubtless many other places. Don't even mention Chicago, yuck!!!
I think the generation of Italian immigrants who made pizza in the 60s and 70s had enough knowledge and connections back in the old country to get the right ingredients. And I think now the people making pizza just don't care.
adamr at 10:38PM on 09/09/09
@paulie: Sac's? Looks like it
Pizzablogger at 11:52PM on 09/09/09
Vic's Pizza Gravesend Brooklyn, meatball hero with sauce one of a kind. Made by Vic's mom supposedly in the kitchen. small place, but old school square slices that make you feel well. Considering the fact that L&B squares seem smaller nowadays than back in the glorious 1980's, Vic's is a nice sized square.
djai695 at 2:52AM on 09/13/09
I haven't done most of these, but Joe's of Bleeker shouldn't be the other NYC pie. I liked even John's more, and Patsy's blows it away.
Lance Roberts at 6:31AM on 09/25/09
Oh, Totonno's if they're open. Just bite the bullet and head to Coney.
Lance Roberts at 6:33AM on 09/25/09
If you haven't already left NYC, I recommend a place called Italia Pizza in the Bensonhurst/Gravesend area of Brooklyn. Like Di Fara, it is located on a street corner, but obviously not the same one. It's a family owned shop. Their ovens are made of steel as well. That's where the similarities end though. At Di Fara's, Dom is the only one making the pies. Not the case here, but it is still a great slice. Nor, do they finish the pie with fresh basil, oil, or more cheese. While Di Fara's looks like a hole in the wall pizza joint, the decor at Italia is much more modern and updated. You can get a regular slice, along with both, Sicilian and grandma slices. If I remember correctly, their hours are from 11/11:30AM to the earliest closing around 10PM.
If you're willing to trek out there, this place is on Kings Highway and West 6TH Street. To get there, you take the N train to Kings Highway in Brooklyn. If you are coming in from Manhattan, you would have to be in, or near the last car. From there, once you are out of the station, make a right, that corner would be Kings Highway and West 7TH Street. Walk down one more block, and you will find yourself on the diagonal corner of the restaurant. Their Sicilian slices are good, but grandma slices are phenomenal, if you like thin, crispy crusts for your slices. I usually get the grandma slices for $2.50.
Other than Di Fara's, that is the only pizzeria I would go out of my way for.
msalwayssmiling at 10:49PM on 11/13/09