Great Lake Is Great Shakes: The Windy City Finally Has Great Pizza to Call Its Own
Posted by Ed Levine, September 3, 2009 at 10:00 AM
I went to Chicago last weekend for the thoroughly enjoyable Gold Peak Tea event at Blackbird. I spent three days there and I must tell serious eaters everywhere that it may have been the finest 72 hours of eating I have done in a long, long time. Chicago has become a remarkable food city from every vantage point: from ethnic regional hole-in-the-wall joints to temples of molecular gastronomy and chef-driven new American restaurants that celebrate local purveyors to just great old-fashioned iconic American foods like hamburgers and hot dogs. Over the next week or so I'll be telling you about much of the food that I found. First up is the artisanal pizzeria Great Lake. —EL
Great Lake's heirloom tomato, fresh mozzarella, garlic, mona, and fresh herb pizza. [Photographs: Robyn Lee]
Great Lake
1477 W. Balmoral Avenue, Chicago IL 60640 (map); 773-334-9270 Getting There: #22 Clark Street bus to Balmoral, walk a quarter block east, or take the Red Line to Berwyn, walk one block north and half a mile west Pizza Style: Biancoesque Oven Type: Gas The Skinny: Extraordinary in every way Price: All pizzas are 14 inches and range from $19 to $23
Let me start off by saying I am not exactly a beloved pizza pundit in the city of Chicago. In Pizza: A Slice of Heaven I pissed off hundreds of thousands of deep-dish-loving Chicagoans when I wrote that, at best, Chicago pizza is a good casserole. I practically needed police protection when I went to the Windy City to promote the book. A Chicago Sun-Times columnist, Mark Brown, devoted two columns to my heretical statement (these were obviously very slow news days).
On my last visit to Chicago I visited Spacca Napoli, which I found OK but uninspiring (at least the day I went). With Serious Eats Chicago correspondent Michael Nagrant I tried to go to Great Lake, which had just opened, but we got there at 3:30 p.m., and it doesn't open until 5:30.
So this time, with Daniel Zemans, another of our fine Chicago writers, in tow, who had already blessed it on Slice, and with Serious Eats' Nick Kindelsperger having written me that, "I had ... a life-changing pizza at Great Lakes. Some of the best bites of my life. If you haven't been there yet, I implore you to make time for a visit (it takes a long time)," I knew I had to make time for Great Lake this time around.
Plus, how could I not go to Great Lake after my friend Alan Richman declared in GQ that the Great Lake mortadella pizza is the finest pizza to be had in this crust-and-cheese-and-sauce-obsessed land of ours: "This (mortadella) pie—creative, original, and somewhat local—represents everything irresistible about the new American style of pizza-making."
The pizza prep area.
Nick Lessins and his wife, Lydia Esparza, opened Great Lake in 2008. According to Daniel, Nick is a self-taught pizzaiolo and pizza-lover who was inspired by multiple visits to Pizzeria Bianco. Interestingly, unlike Chris Bianco, Nick makes his pizza in a conventional gas pizza oven, which is practically obscured in this photo of the kitchen prep area.
The menu, is quite small: three pizzas on any given day, a salad, and the most recent addition, ice cream made by Hot Chocolate's Mindy Segal, one of Chicago's best pastry chefs (and maybe the country's, as I subsequently found out).
The simple salad, made with impeccably fresh ingredients grown on local farms, didn't quite prepare me for how good the pizza turned out to be.
Pizza No. 1: Heirloom tomatoes, fresh mozzarella, garlic, mona, and fresh herbs. Lessin's crust has a beautiful lip or cornicione, as the Italians call it. It is more breadlike than either Anthony Mangieri's was at the now-defunct Una Pizza Napoletana or Chris Bianco's pizza. In fact it looks and tastes a great deal like Nancy Silverton's pizza at Pizzeria Mozza in Los Angeles.
These pizza upskirt and cross-section shots show just how breadlike Lessins' crust is. I would have liked a little more salt and a tad more pliancy in the dough, but I'm nit-picking here. This is glorious, light yeasty, pizza crust.
Pizza No. 2: Impossibly thin slices of zucchini, tangy, salty mona cheese (made from a blend of sheep and cow's milk in neighboring Wisconsin), black pepper, with added pepperoni, reveals Nick's gift for inspired, perfectly proportioned, and wonderfully balanced toppings. His toppings are in fact the stuff of pizza genius.
Pizza No. 3: This smoked bacon, fresh cream, white corn, mona, and chives pizza was spot-on. I could have eaten this whole pie myself.
Lessins made us an off-the-menu pizza so that we could see and taste the kinds of pizza he makes the other three seasons. In summer he likes to stick with white, sauceless pies. This more conventional pizza, made with tomato sauce, mozzarella, and the aforementioned mona, had me planning a return trip.
Daniel brought us some sodas to enjoy—and a special Goose Island Concord Grape soda for Robyn, who dislikes most sodas except for grape-flavored varieties. We also had some serious red wine, thanks to a BYOB-toting Serious Eats fan who sat with his friends at the one big common table that is the heart of Great Lake.
Pizza No. 2: Zucchini, mona, black pepper, with added pepperoni. This might be a gratuitous photo, but I really loved the zucchini and pepperoni pizza, so I thought I should leave you with this enduring image.
So congratulations, Chicagoans, after all these years you finally have a truly great pizzeria that serves non-casserole-derived pizza. Lessins and Esparza have delivered you from pizza purgatory. Great Lake deserves its place in the pizza pantheon. Treasure them and the pizza they are making in the great food city that is Chicago.
Yea agreed Sally, How smug and arrogant can this article be. Chicago is finally becoming a place of fine food, Chicago finally has a good pizza??? That's rude and people of considerable clout in the food world would disagree with you. I think you need to get off your pedestal on this one. Chicago has great cuisine indigenous to the city, and has been a great place to eat since the city's conception. I know its not precious "NEW YORK" but it a great and livable city with normal people. Someone who is more enlightened would understand that great dining and culinary experiences lie in every nook and cranny of the earth. Furthermore you ate pizza with Mike Nagrant? A guy who compared Goose Island to Publican as a gastro-pub, enough said.
With three distinct styles of Chicago pie, Ed Levine is simply lazy to dismiss a whole city based on one style alone. Chicago thin rules, IMO. Outsells deep dish by a wide margin, too.
I know that Chicago is a city of many pizza styles, but in the past I have found the Windy City thin crust pies wanting as well. I know other people feel differently, and you know what? That's okay with me. That's part of the fun of having a multi-faceted dialogue about food. Also, I have always loved Chicago as a food town, but even most serious eaters I know in Chicago would tell you that the city has raised its food game considerably in the last ten years.
I agree with Ed on this one. I find that all too often Chicago pizza is uninspired. With the exception of a Burt's Place or Nick and Vito's, it feels like so many pizza places are resting on their laurels, and this stagnation becomes even more apparent when people like Nick Lessins come along and try not just to sell a product, but an inspirited, refreshing take on pizza. I missed this place on my last trip down to Chicago, but be sure I won't the next time around! Great write-up, Ed.
Great job Ed. I'm glad you were able to visit this time.
Chicagoans take note, you need to try this pizza before complaining. This is pizza in a whole other gastronomic realm. There's no reason to get upset. It's in our city! Rejoice that we are pushing the pursuit of better pizza forward!
This isn't a place to go get a pie, drink a few beers, and hang out. The wait is long. The pies come out only when they are ready. It's a place where pizza is the only important thing and it shows in the obsessive nature of the owners.
Like I told Ed, I've never really had a pizza like the one I had here.
It looks beautiful. But when I next visit Chicago, I'm going to Gino's or Malnati's. Sure it may be a bread-based Lasagna food, but it is what I was raised upon.
Tavern-style pizza is perfect for the tavern, and if you want Neapolitan pizza, I understand there's a place called 'Naples'.
Pauper Nick, We’re not upset that he liked Great Lake, and we shouldn’t have to rejoice. Delicious pizza in Chicago is not a breakthrough, it’s old news. We’re upset about the way he talks about all Chicago pizza. It’s a childish cheap shot and its not cute anymore. It doesn’t make sense. Its just something people (East Coasters) say to be antagonistic.
Great Lake is OFF my list of places to visit... we tried to get a pizza to go, only to be told we had to personally come in to order and then wait 2-3 hours for our 'to go' order. Check out Yelp for other reviews by completely pissed off and disappointed Chicagoans about the customer service at this place. The pizza may be phenomenal, but who cares when you're treated like sh*t?! I will never attempt to go here again, and will do my best to dissuade anyone from supporting this kind of establishment.
"I find that all too often Chicago pizza is uninspired."
Hey, I find the average pizza pretty much everywhere to be uninspired-- it's not like all those Original Ray's slice places in Manhattan are any better than the typical Chicago slice place (probably worse, actually, though that's meant to be very faint praise).
I agree wholeheartedly, Sky Full of Bacon. I hate those Original Ray's slices. And you're also right that generic NYC slices found on many NYC street corners are pretty lousy.
juliecoe, what would you like them to do? Cook the pizzas on top of one another so they have more oven space? If they were able to make your pizza faster they would have.
Thats like saying "Coldplay treated me like sh*t! Their concert was all soldout and they wouldnt let me buy a ticket! You believe that?!?"
That is one beautiful looking place. Inside and out. Even sans the woodburner. Is Renee Zellweger filming Bridget Jones Plumps Up in Chicago? That looks like her in red sitting down.
Is it a crime that I've lived down the street from this place for a year and haven't tried it yet? Need to get to that. Maybe I will wait for the cooler weather to try a sauce-based pizza.
I think that most Chicagoans are simply reacting to Ed's comments because we tend to hear that sort of thing all the time from east coasters. Personally, I never ever mention that I'm going to/am eating/will eat pizza to whole huge swaths of people (friends, coworkers, all sorts) because an east coast native will INEVITABLY, every single time he/she hears the word "pizza," say "ew, Chicago pizza sux. New York pizza is so much better." And after hearing that every single time Chicagoans mention the word "pizza," they tend to get defensive. And I do agree that sometimes it just seems antagonistic so many people feel the need to constantly disparage an entire city's type of a single food.
cptmoll brings up a great point. Because I'm one of those people that used to live in New York and complains when pizza is ordered in Chicago. Here is why:
I know deep dish gets most of the flack in the New York vs. Chicago pizza debate. I don't think that's fair. I think deep dish can be delicious. I also love Pequod's pan pizza and its glorious caramelized crust. That's not what I'm fighting against. I do think it is over represented in articles about pizza because it's a unique variation that was invented in Chicago.
Garvey is right, thin crust pizza is more popular. And whenever pizza is ordered for a party or at an office, it's usual thin. So I'm just going to fan some flames here and say that Chicago's true pizza problem isn't deep dish, it's thin crust. There are a few good examples of the party cut, cheese-laden style, but most are atrocious. The pizza tends to be top heavy, and the crust way too thick. When you bite in the layer of cheese tends to slide off.
The crust is usually not hand formed, but fed through a machine to flatten it out. It's a trick to help speed up the pizza making process, but leaves the crust a clunky, uniform mass. People are right, most of the corner places in New York are not very good. But there are dozens of slice places that serve up a more balanced and thoughtful pie than what passes here as thin crust.
I think that is changing, though. Obviously, I love Great Lakes. I also really like Coalfire, Pizza Antica, La Madia, and Piece. Chicago has some really great pies that are achieving a more perfect balance. But I still think we need a little more of Ed's tough love. We can do better. Come on! We should all aim to eat better pizza!
@Sky Full of Bacon: You're right, I shouldn't have called out Chicago on this one. A lot of places are victims of average pizza, and I should have chose my words better. I'm just glad that image of Chicago as strictly a deep-dish city is slowly being chipped away.
And while on Yelp check the review stating how Great Lake is more expensive then Di Fara's and Lucali. And also how the later has practically no wait compared to Great Lake.
For an insight on how the average customer thinks visit Yelp. For informed knowledgeable reviews I would suggest not.
forzapizza, all I ask is that they treat their customers with as much respect as they treat their pizzas.
It's not a matter of cooking my pizza faster - I understood the wait time and was accepting of that, or I would have never tried to go there in the first place. But with a wait time as it is, I feel it's somewhat unacceptable to not be able to place your order by phone. It's a ridiculous system.
I know I am not the only Chicagoan who feels slighted by this establishment.
I'll go halves with you on this ... sorry Chicago, in the pizza world, until a short time ago all you had was deep dish pizza and it ain't good ... if it were everyone else would have followed suit a long time ago. On the other hand, it always has been and still is one of the best eating towns in the country - from simple to complex, your cooks and chefs throughout the city show off their best stuff every day.
I always assumed that the idea of new yorkers always breaking balls when it comes to chicago pizza was along the same lines as the idea that vegans are always yelling at meat eaters. It's not that it doesn't happen but the people that actually engage in that crap are few and far between. The problem is that those few can be really annoying about it. In any case, who really cares?
On a different note, I have to say I'm really getting tired of places thinking $20 is OK for a simple individual marg pie. Oh, sorry, it's made with heirloom tomatoes. I'll take the canned San Marzanos, thank you. That's not to say this place doesn't look good but I'm just about ready for an over-sourcing backlash to bring things back to reality.
When a national publication claims your offering the best product in the country one needs to adjust business decisions to accommodate the demand. And those decisions are likely to be unpopular with some.
The alternative is accommodate all people or at least try too and go out of business.
In the restaurant business a review like that will do more harm then good. Especially in a small husband- wife pizzeria with one person making the pizza.
juliecoe, taking orders by phone isnt going to make their oven bigger. the same amount of pizzas are going to be made every night no matter what. they are at capacity. i bet the owners can tell you the number of pizzas they will make that night and be within 4 or 5. they couldnt accomodate phone orders if they wanted to. how could they possibly fit in a phone order when they have a mile long line? if they did, their night would be booked in the first half hour and there would be no point of them having a single table in the place. and then what? their phone line is going to be busy from 530pm until close and people will just get pissed again. not too mention they will still have a line of angry people wondering why there is no one inside.
the unfriendly workers are a different story. thats not right.
my analogy was correct in the first place, and yours does not apply. Great Lake cant make "cd's". Its not that they wont....they cant.
It's so hard to find truly great pizza, and great may be one of the more abused words in the English language, particularly when it comes to pizza, that I'm willing to forgive being treated a little roughly.
Would I prefer top notch service, friendly staff and owners? Of course I would. Does such a thing enhance the joy of visiting an establishment? Of course it does. Do these things make the pizza taste better? Absolutely not.
As long as the establishment is clean, I love a truly great pizza so much I'll deal with a crazy ordering system and even gruff ownership. I mean, if it is great, and the pics here make Great Lake look like it might be the genuine article, I'll even suffer someone saying retched things about my family while waiting for such a pizza. The server or owner in question would need a slab of meat for their face, but I'd come back for such a pizza.
The pizza at Great Lake never ceases to amaze me and it was no different on this visit when I got to watch Ed Levine eat pizza in Chicago that, if Pizzeria Bianco and Mozza are his standards for ideal pizza, is better than anything available in entire Eastern time zone.
For those who've had problems with Lydia and Nick, I have a couple of thoughts beyond simply pointing out that I've found them to be very nice hosts. This is a small operation that turns out exceptional pizzas. If you eat there, the chances are that you are going to have to wait a while and if you prepare for that, I think it's a lot easier to handle. If not, then it's probably best you eat somewhere else.
As far as the calling in orders issue goes, the reality is that almost every night, there is far more demand than supply. That means that virtually every night there are going to be people who want pizza but can't get any. If Nick and Lydia have made the decision to give priority to customers who put forth a little more effort and actually come into the restaurant, then so be it. Great Lake is a neighborhood restaurant that happens to sell exceptional pizza. Implementing policies that favor those more invested in spending time in the community doesn't seem like a bad idea to me at all.
My main worry, is the term artisanal pizzeria. Why? Well, we have the word artisanal, which contains the term "anal". This tells me that I am going to be eating overprices pizza around a bunch of trendy snoots, whom I would rather stab with a fork than be in the same room with. When it comes to great pizza, it should be simple and not too expensive. Hooidy tooidy people should not apply.
I still love the Chicago Deep Dish review. You were spot on Ed. It's not pizza, and it doesn't hold a candle to the great thin crust pizzas of the world. Overrated at best.
I have a question for you. I know you put a lot of time into the chicago pizza scene and have a great passion for the city and its pies. So I was wondering how you handle the comments that Ed Levine makes about Chicago pizza. What is the pizza scene like when one of our biggest promoters has a sit down with one of our biggest haters? Just curious.
@Pauper Nick: you're right about most pies being mediocre, Chicago thin being no exception. However, as someone who now lives in the South, I would KILL for some run-of-the-mill, "mediocre" Chicago thin at an office party or other such gathering. Instead, it's invariably Papa John's or equally kra-zappy chain "pizza."
My point is: it's all relative. If you are reading this and you live somewhere that you can get good 'za on a regular basis, get down on your hands and knees and praise God.
@forzapizza: Deep dish and stuffed pizza are recognized by hundreds of millions of people as pizza. If Ed or anyone else wants to call it casserole, it really doesn't bother me at all. I actually find it kind of amusing.
@juliecoe: No matter what the business is, restaurant or hardware store, you better be paying more attention to me than the person who's phoning it in. I'd leave the place if you got more attention than I did.
Do you think that just because Great Lake makes pizza, it automatically implies that it caters to the pick-up/delivery crowd? You wouldn't call Spiaggia or Blackbird or Charlie Trotter's with an order to go. Or maybe you would.
Many yelpers adore the pizza but still gripe about being made to jump through hoops to get it
My favorite Yelp review posted 6/27/2009 right after the GQ proclamation------>>>
Pizza was quite good, but it took 2 1/2 hours, and they told us we should only order one because they don't come out at the same time and so we'd have to wait for the second one. Apparently, they only bake one at a time in the oven. While we were there, there was a steady stream of complaints. Two people walked out after waiting 3 hours and not getting their pizza. Two more refused to pay and sent the pizza back. Another guy had a screaming match with the staff on his way out. And then there was the steady flow of people being turned away, having their take out orders refused, and grumbling about it. All of which helps to make sure you can't enjoy your meal.
The business model makes no sense. You have 7 tables, you charge 23 dollars per pizza, and you make each one of those 7 tables take as long as humanly possible so that you can turn away as many more people as possible. Then you serve them with dirty plates and soiled cloths as napkins, and completely ignore them. You act put upon to provide so much as tap water (which you serve tepid). You make them walk right through the middle of the food prep to get to the bathroom (seriously! so I advise all diners to form a pact with the other patrons - whom you will get to know quite well during your 2 1/2 hour wait- that all diners will wash their hands...) And then you act surprised at all the complaints.
I can't imagine they will stay in business after the hubbub dies down. Which is a shame, because they actually do make a pretty good pizza... (or rather, 3 pizzas, as you don't pick your own toppings.) Or maybe people just think it tastes good because they're guaranteed to be starving by the time they eat it.
Perhaps the could stave off the negative reactions from customers waiting for pies by taking a page out of Chris Bianco's book and opening up a bar next door. You rarely see that kind review for Pizzeria Bianco. He also doesn't do takeout, so that cuts down on the wait and the ruffled feathers.
This topics has gotten me thinking; Perhaps Mr. Richman took a shortcut and based his rankings on how long people wait in line for a pie. Great Lakes - long wait, Lucali - long wait, Pizzeria Delfina - long wait, Pizzeria Bianco - long wait, Sally's - long wait. Is there a long wait at Bob & Timmy's?
If I hadn't come from Philly to eat in Chicago I may have gave a crap that the wait was two hours. But I think the real difference is how bad you want something. Did you ever wait for six hours to get concert tickets? I never complained about that, and that is far more uncomfortable than drinking great beer down the street at Hopleaf.
These people do come off slightly arrogant in the way they run the show, but the pizza is perfect. It was more inspiring than any pizza I've eaten in NYC(except Di Fara). They are baking pizza with the best ingredients and the results are really something of beauty.
In the deep-dish pizza city, thin seems to be in - U.S. business ...
Aug 28, 2009 ... "A pizza is always dying," explained Jonathan Goldsmith, who opened Spacca Napoli in 2006, and who neither delivers nor takes phone orders....."As soon as it is out of the oven it is meant to be eaten." ...... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32597742/ns/business-us_business/
"A pizza is always dying" is something I emphatically agree with. I would rather eat my homemade English muffin "pizza" red hot right out my toaster oven than to take Great Lake (or anyone's) pizza home and eat it lukewarm.
I agree wholeheartedly about pizza dying. However most pizzerias would have to raise their prices considerably to make up for the lost revenue that takeout would have generated. Before customers in the dining get too upset, they should consider how much their pie would cost it they didn't do takeout.
Hey Pauli--
That's the problem with being a preeminent pizzaiolo. Your guests and family get to eat it your pizzas at their optimum. Right out of the brick oven. While you have to wait. I'm sure you get dig in right away some of the time but...
BTW I used to go Umberto a lot but that was back in 1983 when I worked near there. The Sicilian was bready and thin on top. So I dodged them but ate the calzones. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/154552
I always liked Santarpios with its easier parking but Regina's original in the North End was as good. I remember when Daily Catch started. The guy specialized in calamari and other squid dishes and had a hard time in the beginning. But then he took off and had a number of establishments.
@gaffer Thanks very much for the compliment. As far as waiting goes, I always use the excuse that I have to get moving on the next pie so I can grab a slice right away.
I had visited the old Fidh Piers Daily Catch location and didn't enjoy it nearly as much. The atmosphere in the 22 seater on Hanover Street is very unique. Boy do I miss that place. Last time I was there was the day in 2002 NBA playoffs when the Celtics came from 26 down in the fourth quarter to overtake the Nets. It was by far the most exciting sporting event I have ever attended. And I've been to a slew of Yankee post-season games.
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47 Comments:
He must have learned to slice that zucchini that thin from watching Goodfellas too many times.
My goodness those are great looking pizzas.....great write-up, great pictures, I'm hungy! ---PB
Pizzablogger at 10:18AM on 09/03/09
Ummmm, way to piss off a bunch of Chicagoans again. FYI, the police force here might be inclined to look the other way the next time you're in town.
sally599 at 10:37AM on 09/03/09
The zucchini one is beautiful. I suddenly really want to visit Chicago.
LHSK12 at 10:41AM on 09/03/09
Yea agreed Sally, How smug and arrogant can this article be. Chicago is finally becoming a place of fine food, Chicago finally has a good pizza??? That's rude and people of considerable clout in the food world would disagree with you. I think you need to get off your pedestal on this one. Chicago has great cuisine indigenous to the city, and has been a great place to eat since the city's conception. I know its not precious "NEW YORK" but it a great and livable city with normal people. Someone who is more enlightened would understand that great dining and culinary experiences lie in every nook and cranny of the earth. Furthermore you ate pizza with Mike Nagrant? A guy who compared Goose Island to Publican as a gastro-pub, enough said.
Timothyrows at 10:48AM on 09/03/09
With three distinct styles of Chicago pie, Ed Levine is simply lazy to dismiss a whole city based on one style alone. Chicago thin rules, IMO. Outsells deep dish by a wide margin, too.
Garvey at 10:52AM on 09/03/09
I know that Chicago is a city of many pizza styles, but in the past I have found the Windy City thin crust pies wanting as well. I know other people feel differently, and you know what? That's okay with me. That's part of the fun of having a multi-faceted dialogue about food. Also, I have always loved Chicago as a food town, but even most serious eaters I know in Chicago would tell you that the city has raised its food game considerably in the last ten years.
Ed Levine at 11:01AM on 09/03/09
Looks like it's worth a try - but chicago has had great thin pizza for a couple of years - try coalfire for beautiful wood-fired pizza.
lakerol at 11:18AM on 09/03/09
I agree with Ed on this one. I find that all too often Chicago pizza is uninspired. With the exception of a Burt's Place or Nick and Vito's, it feels like so many pizza places are resting on their laurels, and this stagnation becomes even more apparent when people like Nick Lessins come along and try not just to sell a product, but an inspirited, refreshing take on pizza. I missed this place on my last trip down to Chicago, but be sure I won't the next time around! Great write-up, Ed.
pastry262 at 11:31AM on 09/03/09
Great job Ed. I'm glad you were able to visit this time.
Chicagoans take note, you need to try this pizza before complaining. This is pizza in a whole other gastronomic realm. There's no reason to get upset. It's in our city! Rejoice that we are pushing the pursuit of better pizza forward!
This isn't a place to go get a pie, drink a few beers, and hang out. The wait is long. The pies come out only when they are ready. It's a place where pizza is the only important thing and it shows in the obsessive nature of the owners.
Like I told Ed, I've never really had a pizza like the one I had here.
Nick Kindelsperger at 11:37AM on 09/03/09
It looks beautiful. But when I next visit Chicago, I'm going to Gino's or Malnati's. Sure it may be a bread-based Lasagna food, but it is what I was raised upon.
Tavern-style pizza is perfect for the tavern, and if you want Neapolitan pizza, I understand there's a place called 'Naples'.
NotAmerican at 12:00PM on 09/03/09
Pauper Nick, We’re not upset that he liked Great Lake, and we shouldn’t have to rejoice. Delicious pizza in Chicago is not a breakthrough, it’s old news. We’re upset about the way he talks about all Chicago pizza. It’s a childish cheap shot and its not cute anymore. It doesn’t make sense. Its just something people (East Coasters) say to be antagonistic.
Forza Pizza,
Alberto
forzapizza at 12:25PM on 09/03/09
Great Lake is OFF my list of places to visit... we tried to get a pizza to go, only to be told we had to personally come in to order and then wait 2-3 hours for our 'to go' order. Check out Yelp for other reviews by completely pissed off and disappointed Chicagoans about the customer service at this place. The pizza may be phenomenal, but who cares when you're treated like sh*t?! I will never attempt to go here again, and will do my best to dissuade anyone from supporting this kind of establishment.
juliecoe at 12:55PM on 09/03/09
"I find that all too often Chicago pizza is uninspired."
Hey, I find the average pizza pretty much everywhere to be uninspired-- it's not like all those Original Ray's slice places in Manhattan are any better than the typical Chicago slice place (probably worse, actually, though that's meant to be very faint praise).
Sky Full of Bacon at 12:59PM on 09/03/09
I agree wholeheartedly, Sky Full of Bacon. I hate those Original Ray's slices. And you're also right that generic NYC slices found on many NYC street corners are pretty lousy.
Ed Levine at 1:04PM on 09/03/09
juliecoe, what would you like them to do? Cook the pizzas on top of one another so they have more oven space? If they were able to make your pizza faster they would have.
Thats like saying "Coldplay treated me like sh*t! Their concert was all soldout and they wouldnt let me buy a ticket! You believe that?!?"
forzapizza at 1:06PM on 09/03/09
That is one beautiful looking place. Inside and out. Even sans the woodburner. Is Renee Zellweger filming Bridget Jones Plumps Up in Chicago? That looks like her in red sitting down.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 1:41PM on 09/03/09
Is it a crime that I've lived down the street from this place for a year and haven't tried it yet? Need to get to that. Maybe I will wait for the cooler weather to try a sauce-based pizza.
I think that most Chicagoans are simply reacting to Ed's comments because we tend to hear that sort of thing all the time from east coasters. Personally, I never ever mention that I'm going to/am eating/will eat pizza to whole huge swaths of people (friends, coworkers, all sorts) because an east coast native will INEVITABLY, every single time he/she hears the word "pizza," say "ew, Chicago pizza sux. New York pizza is so much better." And after hearing that every single time Chicagoans mention the word "pizza," they tend to get defensive. And I do agree that sometimes it just seems antagonistic so many people feel the need to constantly disparage an entire city's type of a single food.
cptmoll at 2:47PM on 09/03/09
Yelp--
Lots of reviews by customers treated like shit
http://www.yelp.com/biz/great-lake-chicago
gaffer at 4:07PM on 09/03/09
cptmoll brings up a great point. Because I'm one of those people that used to live in New York and complains when pizza is ordered in Chicago. Here is why:
I know deep dish gets most of the flack in the New York vs. Chicago pizza debate. I don't think that's fair. I think deep dish can be delicious. I also love Pequod's pan pizza and its glorious caramelized crust. That's not what I'm fighting against. I do think it is over represented in articles about pizza because it's a unique variation that was invented in Chicago.
Garvey is right, thin crust pizza is more popular. And whenever pizza is ordered for a party or at an office, it's usual thin. So I'm just going to fan some flames here and say that Chicago's true pizza problem isn't deep dish, it's thin crust. There are a few good examples of the party cut, cheese-laden style, but most are atrocious. The pizza tends to be top heavy, and the crust way too thick. When you bite in the layer of cheese tends to slide off.
The crust is usually not hand formed, but fed through a machine to flatten it out. It's a trick to help speed up the pizza making process, but leaves the crust a clunky, uniform mass. People are right, most of the corner places in New York are not very good. But there are dozens of slice places that serve up a more balanced and thoughtful pie than what passes here as thin crust.
I think that is changing, though. Obviously, I love Great Lakes. I also really like Coalfire, Pizza Antica, La Madia, and Piece. Chicago has some really great pies that are achieving a more perfect balance. But I still think we need a little more of Ed's tough love. We can do better. Come on! We should all aim to eat better pizza!
Nick Kindelsperger at 4:11PM on 09/03/09
@Sky Full of Bacon: You're right, I shouldn't have called out Chicago on this one. A lot of places are victims of average pizza, and I should have chose my words better. I'm just glad that image of Chicago as strictly a deep-dish city is slowly being chipped away.
pastry262 at 4:32PM on 09/03/09
And while on Yelp check the review stating how Great Lake is more expensive then Di Fara's and Lucali. And also how the later has practically no wait compared to Great Lake.
For an insight on how the average customer thinks visit Yelp. For informed knowledgeable reviews I would suggest not.
robert40 at 4:50PM on 09/03/09
forzapizza, all I ask is that they treat their customers with as much respect as they treat their pizzas.
It's not a matter of cooking my pizza faster - I understood the wait time and was accepting of that, or I would have never tried to go there in the first place. But with a wait time as it is, I feel it's somewhat unacceptable to not be able to place your order by phone. It's a ridiculous system.
I know I am not the only Chicagoan who feels slighted by this establishment.
juliecoe at 4:59PM on 09/03/09
I'll go halves with you on this ... sorry Chicago, in the pizza world, until a short time ago all you had was deep dish pizza and it ain't good ... if it were everyone else would have followed suit a long time ago. On the other hand, it always has been and still is one of the best eating towns in the country - from simple to complex, your cooks and chefs throughout the city show off their best stuff every day.
thomy at 5:00PM on 09/03/09
forzapizza - also, your Coldplay analogy would be correct if you had said, "... and they wouldn't allow me to buy their cd to listen to at home?!?"
juliecoe at 5:02PM on 09/03/09
I always assumed that the idea of new yorkers always breaking balls when it comes to chicago pizza was along the same lines as the idea that vegans are always yelling at meat eaters. It's not that it doesn't happen but the people that actually engage in that crap are few and far between. The problem is that those few can be really annoying about it. In any case, who really cares?
On a different note, I have to say I'm really getting tired of places thinking $20 is OK for a simple individual marg pie. Oh, sorry, it's made with heirloom tomatoes. I'll take the canned San Marzanos, thank you. That's not to say this place doesn't look good but I'm just about ready for an over-sourcing backlash to bring things back to reality.
sloppy at 5:04PM on 09/03/09
When a national publication claims your offering the best product in the country one needs to adjust business decisions to accommodate the demand. And those decisions are likely to be unpopular with some.
The alternative is accommodate all people or at least try too and go out of business.
In the restaurant business a review like that will do more harm then good. Especially in a small husband- wife pizzeria with one person making the pizza.
robert40 at 5:23PM on 09/03/09
juliecoe, taking orders by phone isnt going to make their oven bigger. the same amount of pizzas are going to be made every night no matter what. they are at capacity. i bet the owners can tell you the number of pizzas they will make that night and be within 4 or 5. they couldnt accomodate phone orders if they wanted to. how could they possibly fit in a phone order when they have a mile long line? if they did, their night would be booked in the first half hour and there would be no point of them having a single table in the place. and then what? their phone line is going to be busy from 530pm until close and people will just get pissed again. not too mention they will still have a line of angry people wondering why there is no one inside.
the unfriendly workers are a different story. thats not right.
my analogy was correct in the first place, and yours does not apply. Great Lake cant make "cd's". Its not that they wont....they cant.
forzapizza at 5:38PM on 09/03/09
It's so hard to find truly great pizza, and great may be one of the more abused words in the English language, particularly when it comes to pizza, that I'm willing to forgive being treated a little roughly.
Would I prefer top notch service, friendly staff and owners? Of course I would. Does such a thing enhance the joy of visiting an establishment? Of course it does. Do these things make the pizza taste better? Absolutely not.
As long as the establishment is clean, I love a truly great pizza so much I'll deal with a crazy ordering system and even gruff ownership. I mean, if it is great, and the pics here make Great Lake look like it might be the genuine article, I'll even suffer someone saying retched things about my family while waiting for such a pizza. The server or owner in question would need a slab of meat for their face, but I'd come back for such a pizza.
Pizzablogger at 6:53PM on 09/03/09
On my visit to Great Lake I found the owners to be more then friendly and found no faults with service.
robert40 at 7:03PM on 09/03/09
The pizza at Great Lake never ceases to amaze me and it was no different on this visit when I got to watch Ed Levine eat pizza in Chicago that, if Pizzeria Bianco and Mozza are his standards for ideal pizza, is better than anything available in entire Eastern time zone.
For those who've had problems with Lydia and Nick, I have a couple of thoughts beyond simply pointing out that I've found them to be very nice hosts. This is a small operation that turns out exceptional pizzas. If you eat there, the chances are that you are going to have to wait a while and if you prepare for that, I think it's a lot easier to handle. If not, then it's probably best you eat somewhere else.
As far as the calling in orders issue goes, the reality is that almost every night, there is far more demand than supply. That means that virtually every night there are going to be people who want pizza but can't get any. If Nick and Lydia have made the decision to give priority to customers who put forth a little more effort and actually come into the restaurant, then so be it. Great Lake is a neighborhood restaurant that happens to sell exceptional pizza. Implementing policies that favor those more invested in spending time in the community doesn't seem like a bad idea to me at all.
Daniel Zemans at 7:51PM on 09/03/09
That pizza does look great indeed!
My main worry, is the term artisanal pizzeria. Why? Well, we have the word artisanal, which contains the term "anal". This tells me that I am going to be eating overprices pizza around a bunch of trendy snoots, whom I would rather stab with a fork than be in the same room with. When it comes to great pizza, it should be simple and not too expensive. Hooidy tooidy people should not apply.
I still love the Chicago Deep Dish review. You were spot on Ed. It's not pizza, and it doesn't hold a candle to the great thin crust pizzas of the world. Overrated at best.
Raiders757 at 8:37PM on 09/03/09
Daniel, well put.
I have a question for you. I know you put a lot of time into the chicago pizza scene and have a great passion for the city and its pies. So I was wondering how you handle the comments that Ed Levine makes about Chicago pizza. What is the pizza scene like when one of our biggest promoters has a sit down with one of our biggest haters? Just curious.
Thanks
forzapizza at 9:15PM on 09/03/09
@Pauper Nick: you're right about most pies being mediocre, Chicago thin being no exception. However, as someone who now lives in the South, I would KILL for some run-of-the-mill, "mediocre" Chicago thin at an office party or other such gathering. Instead, it's invariably Papa John's or equally kra-zappy chain "pizza."
My point is: it's all relative. If you are reading this and you live somewhere that you can get good 'za on a regular basis, get down on your hands and knees and praise God.
Garvey at 11:59PM on 09/03/09
@forzapizza: Deep dish and stuffed pizza are recognized by hundreds of millions of people as pizza. If Ed or anyone else wants to call it casserole, it really doesn't bother me at all. I actually find it kind of amusing.
Daniel Zemans at 2:15AM on 09/04/09
@juliecoe: No matter what the business is, restaurant or hardware store, you better be paying more attention to me than the person who's phoning it in. I'd leave the place if you got more attention than I did.
Do you think that just because Great Lake makes pizza, it automatically implies that it caters to the pick-up/delivery crowd? You wouldn't call Spiaggia or Blackbird or Charlie Trotter's with an order to go. Or maybe you would.
betteirene at 3:59AM on 09/04/09
Many yelpers adore the pizza but still gripe about being made to jump through hoops to get it
My favorite Yelp review posted 6/27/2009 right after the GQ proclamation------>>>
Pizza was quite good, but it took 2 1/2 hours, and they told us we should only order one because they don't come out at the same time and so we'd have to wait for the second one. Apparently, they only bake one at a time in the oven. While we were there, there was a steady stream of complaints. Two people walked out after waiting 3 hours and not getting their pizza. Two more refused to pay and sent the pizza back. Another guy had a screaming match with the staff on his way out. And then there was the steady flow of people being turned away, having their take out orders refused, and grumbling about it. All of which helps to make sure you can't enjoy your meal.
The business model makes no sense. You have 7 tables, you charge 23 dollars per pizza, and you make each one of those 7 tables take as long as humanly possible so that you can turn away as many more people as possible. Then you serve them with dirty plates and soiled cloths as napkins, and completely ignore them. You act put upon to provide so much as tap water (which you serve tepid). You make them walk right through the middle of the food prep to get to the bathroom (seriously! so I advise all diners to form a pact with the other patrons - whom you will get to know quite well during your 2 1/2 hour wait- that all diners will wash their hands...) And then you act surprised at all the complaints.
I can't imagine they will stay in business after the hubbub dies down. Which is a shame, because they actually do make a pretty good pizza... (or rather, 3 pizzas, as you don't pick your own toppings.) Or maybe people just think it tastes good because they're guaranteed to be starving by the time they eat it.
Greg M.
Chicago, IL
gaffer at 6:44AM on 09/04/09
Perhaps the could stave off the negative reactions from customers waiting for pies by taking a page out of Chris Bianco's book and opening up a bar next door. You rarely see that kind review for Pizzeria Bianco. He also doesn't do takeout, so that cuts down on the wait and the ruffled feathers.
This topics has gotten me thinking; Perhaps Mr. Richman took a shortcut and based his rankings on how long people wait in line for a pie. Great Lakes - long wait, Lucali - long wait, Pizzeria Delfina - long wait, Pizzeria Bianco - long wait, Sally's - long wait. Is there a long wait at Bob & Timmy's?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 8:57AM on 09/04/09
If I hadn't come from Philly to eat in Chicago I may have gave a crap that the wait was two hours. But I think the real difference is how bad you want something. Did you ever wait for six hours to get concert tickets? I never complained about that, and that is far more uncomfortable than drinking great beer down the street at Hopleaf.
These people do come off slightly arrogant in the way they run the show, but the pizza is perfect. It was more inspiring than any pizza I've eaten in NYC(except Di Fara). They are baking pizza with the best ingredients and the results are really something of beauty.
I can't wait to go back!
moesizlacks at 9:41AM on 09/04/09
In the deep-dish pizza city, thin seems to be in - U.S. business ...
Aug 28, 2009 ... "A pizza is always dying," explained Jonathan Goldsmith, who opened Spacca Napoli in 2006, and who neither delivers nor takes phone orders....."As soon as it is out of the oven it is meant to be eaten." ...... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32597742/ns/business-us_business/
"A pizza is always dying" is something I emphatically agree with. I would rather eat my homemade English muffin "pizza" red hot right out my toaster oven than to take Great Lake (or anyone's) pizza home and eat it lukewarm.
gaffer at 11:10AM on 09/04/09
I agree wholeheartedly about pizza dying. However most pizzerias would have to raise their prices considerably to make up for the lost revenue that takeout would have generated. Before customers in the dining get too upset, they should consider how much their pie would cost it they didn't do takeout.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 2:55PM on 09/04/09
Hey Pauli--
That's the problem with being a preeminent pizzaiolo. Your guests and family get to eat it your pizzas at their optimum. Right out of the brick oven. While you have to wait. I'm sure you get dig in right away some of the time but...
BTW I used to go Umberto a lot but that was back in 1983 when I worked near there. The Sicilian was bready and thin on top. So I dodged them but ate the calzones. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/154552
I always liked Santarpios with its easier parking but Regina's original in the North End was as good. I remember when Daily Catch started. The guy specialized in calamari and other squid dishes and had a hard time in the beginning. But then he took off and had a number of establishments.
gaffer at 4:11PM on 09/04/09
@gaffer Thanks very much for the compliment. As far as waiting goes, I always use the excuse that I have to get moving on the next pie so I can grab a slice right away.
I had visited the old Fidh Piers Daily Catch location and didn't enjoy it nearly as much. The atmosphere in the 22 seater on Hanover Street is very unique. Boy do I miss that place. Last time I was there was the day in 2002 NBA playoffs when the Celtics came from 26 down in the fourth quarter to overtake the Nets. It was by far the most exciting sporting event I have ever attended. And I've been to a slew of Yankee post-season games.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:23PM on 09/04/09
How did we wind up in Boston on the Great Lakes post?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:46PM on 09/04/09
Pauli--- I saw your post on the Boston Sicilian tour so that was my reply
gaffer at 7:26PM on 09/05/09
Ah, yes.
Ed Levine. The pied piper of the "if you can't fold it like a taco it ain't pizza" knuckleheads. Scurries out of town with a backhanded compliment.
If you want to play cheerleader for a "great taste" "less filling" shout off at Yankee Stadium by all means - go right ahead.
Just leave the Windy City out of it so I don't have to suffer these comments every time I want to read about some great Chicago pizza.
CPC Ryan at 11:00AM on 09/06/09
@CPC Ryan Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 11:50AM on 09/06/09
"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
-Yogi Berra
I'm pretty sure the threats to not come back because of the wait will be given the attention they deserve...
Evan Murdock at 4:38PM on 01/14/10