A) Minor distinction: It wasn't a "flame," it was the Truth Hammer. Flames are done in spirit of meanness. That was not.
B) Sietsema has some good points ...
He brings up a really interesting one about how "Neapolitan" pizza has been bastardized in the U.S.:
New York pizza parlors that claim to make Naples-style pizzas are a joke on several levels, though sometimes they partly succeed in making crusts that taste somewhat like those of Naples. But then they totally fuck the rest of it up....
Here, Naples pizzas got all pretentious and weird, and hoisted prohibitive pricetags. And despite the superficial resemblance of the pies in some cases, the whole tradition has been totally betrayed on these shores. Here, the pies are often priced in the $15 to $20 range for a single small pie. In Naples, you choose your strew of toppings from a very limited list. Here, in response to what the owners cynically feel the public wants, pizzaioli throw all sorts of crap on their pies, stuff that doesn't belong there.
Honestly, I've never been to Naples. (And some of the first glimpses Slice readers got of the place were thanks to Robert — thanks, Robert!). It's one of the major holes in my pizza game. So I'll take Sietsema's word for it that we in the States are putting weird shit on pizzas that shouldn't be on there. To someone really versed in true Naples pizza, I'd imagine that would be akin to Americans' reaction to seeing Japanese shrimp-and-squid-and-corn pizza. But if crazy toppings disqualify a New York–based, Naples-leaning pizzeria from being "Naples-style," then shouldn't Roberta's get the boot, too, since its killer Cortes pie is as crazy (good) as all get-out? So the next question becomes ...
So why did we pick Roberta's as our favorite Naples style pie of the year? Because, in its vibe, genuine goodness, size of the pie, choice of local ingredients (very, very local), it comes closer than Keste or La Pizza Fresca or Motorino to capturing the spirit, and part of the taste, of Naples-style pizza.
Actually, come to think of it, Totonno's Pizzeria Napolitano come closer than all those places to the true spirit of Naples pies, in everything but size.
Rebecca Marx has just emailed me on the subject of the Slice flame: "I think it's funny that his refutation was about three times as long as what you guys had originally written. He says we're trying to spike readership and blog hits, but posts like his are written solely to accomplish the same goal."
Oh, touché on that last sentence! (Actually, I did fear that my contrarian take on the Voice's take would be construed as so much linkbaiting. But I did write that screed as a sincere observation. When we're going for link bait at Slice, we do shit like Top 10 Crazy Asian Pizza Crusts or who knows what else. And I won't pretend that we at Serious Eats don't try to do posts we think will get a lot of attention--our best-of posts are as much about finding the best XYZ as they are about generating discussion about those items.)
On Authenticity
Anyway, this all becomes a very interesting discussion about Naples vs. Naples-style vis-à-vis "authenticity" and bastardization, etc.
I've never been one to bow to the strictures of "authenticity." If Neapolitan pizza means a limited choice of toppings, then I'm all for bastardization--especially if it gives us Roberta's Cortes or Roberta's (apparently now gone) Da Kine pie or Motorino's brussels sprouts–and-pancetta pie.
If people are going to get overly anal about authentic 'Naples' pizza then fine - I vote to leave Neapolitan Pizza in Naples.
Stipulations about tomatoes, flour, cheese and, yes oil poured from copper cannisters are all well and good when you're actually IN Naples. They are just ridiculous when you're in NY. Don't get me wrong, the ingredients are excellent and I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise (I use them regularly at home...although technically, I'm geographically closer to Naples than NY) - but at some point this whole authenticity thing risks becoming a smokescreen (wood fired, to be sure!) for the actual pizza.
@foolishpoolish: Well said. I had launched into a screed going in a similar direction as what you say here, but my words weren't as focused or coherent (I need to get lunch and get my brain in gear). Thanks for expressing that so succinctly.
I, too, think that the whole "authenticity" thing is sometimes a smokescreen and one that pizzaphiles are often too eager to be led astray by.
He's sort of contradicting himself. He rants "Here, in response to what the owners cynically feel the public wants, pizzaioli throw all sorts of crap on their pies, stuff that doesn't belong there." and then he goes on to pick Roberta's as his top choice. Do they serve jalapenos, pineapple, or capers on pizza in Naples?.
@bobbob: Yes. That's what I was trying to get at, saying that if you diss other pizzerias for going crazy on toppings, you have to put Roberta's in that camp, too. Moreover, it was my understanding that Neapolitans sometimes put hot dogs and french fries on their pizzas.
Well, here we go again with the "true" Naples pie vs Naples inspired...I dont really care what they call it, as long as its great pizza..Once i try it, i'll know what to call it..and if i'll be back.fortunately, we here in LA(i cant believe i'm writing this) have awesome options for each, Mozza, definitely not authentic, way too many unusual but dellllicious toppings, and Antica, from the Neapolitan master himself..wonder what i'm hvin for lunch today...hmmm
Serious question: Do they call it 'Neapolitan Pizza' in Naples? or just pizza?
I'm not talking about the famous 'Antica' tourist destinations but the average pizzeria.
FP
You can take the Naples out of the pizza, and it's still good but take the pizza out of Naples and people are going to get upset.
So, is "The Village Voice" now D.O.C.? Maybe Mr. Sietsema should have written his article in Italian. He probably needs to live in a pizza hinterland for a couple of years. The only D.O.C. that matters to me is "New York pizza", "NY-style pizza", "New Haven pizza", etc. God, I'm gettin' hungry...going to have to hit Tomatoes soon.
I'm confused. Why call the best pizza category "Best Naples-Style Pizza" when you clearly think the label doesn't mean what everyone else thinks it means? Was "Best Pizza" already taken? Did he only name it that to tweak Keste, Motorino, etc. and to start up some controversy? It looks that way. And it has clearly worked. Doesn't seem very helpful to the readers, though.
OH MAN!!
well... where do i start....
ok i have never had roberta's pizza
so i can only comment on how it looks
and since i can tell if a person's soul is rotting upon meeting him/her
BELIEVE me i can tell if a pizza is good.
i am looking forward to trying roberta's because the pizzas i saw on the internet do look good.... mmmmm....
but they look slightly different than Neapolitan, which of course does not mean it's good or bad,..... just different
BUT THAT IS MY POINT,
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT to Robert Sietsema
this CANNOT be the best Neapolitan, if it's a bit different than Neapolitan.
you can say it's better, FINE...but it's not necessarily the same.
so the argument doesn't make any sense when it's being made in the "Neapolitan"category.
AND to be fair (again respectfully) i am pretty sure Sietsema also said a while back that pizza is American and not Neapolitan, which I am sorry but there is more agreement on the Iraq war than on THAT!!!
My mother used to tell me how her great grandmother would make pizzas learned from older generations.
My mother is almost 60, meaning probably her great grandmother was probably born in 1850 and SHE learned it from older generations in Italy.
SO IT"S IMPOSSIBLE that Pizza was in America when we had the Revolution!!!
NOW if Sietsema wants to say that the "style of pizza" that is popularized around America and the world is more American...yes, he's right
but he should also add that THAT style includes low grade- shitty products that the Taliban wouldn't feed their captives, out of decent human respect.
BTW as i wrote this comment it took forever because some Nissan ad video kept popping up and stalling and wouldn't let me type. I REALLY hope it's not gonna be a full time thing on slice, cuz it drove me NUTS!
And
@ Foolishpoolish
No, they don't call it Neapolitan pizza in Naples, but that would be funny though!! I guess it's like why Philadelphians do not call a cheese steak a "Philly cheese steak" !!!
ha ha, they'd probably look at someone weird if they heard that
take care
Gianluca http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
OHHH and i forgot
EVEN if Pizza were invented in America (which is wasn't) and not in Naples...
well then who else BUT NEAPOLITANS invented it in America?
Check mate!
and yes btw i am aware that primitive man was making breads and adding stuff on it and in theory that could be considered "pizza" but
that's not what's being discussed here
Gianluca http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
Please tell Chris that I will be forever grateful for the time he spent with Michael and I, as well as for his generous hospitality. And also tell him that as he suggested, I will be sure to pay it forward.
@passion4pizza
Anyone who makes pizza regularly with neapolitan ingredients will know that the official pizza discipline is a great guideline but it won't necessarily give you the best pizza followed word for word.
Things like "allows it to absorb between 50 to
55% of its weight in water to reach the “optimal point” and 4-6 hour rising times just don't produce an 'optimal' product. Work with the flour rather than trying to make your flour do what some guideline says.
Da Michele, for example, deviates from the VPN on several points. No one could accuse that institution of making sub-par neapolitan pizza.
The best pizza comes from experience not from rules and certification - and it's experience that makes pizzaiolos in Naples so good at what they do.
I submit there is an argument to be made that VPN America (for example) is just an attempt to franchise Neapolitan heritage. It essentially represents a consortium of local naples producers and craftspeople through selling the 'Verace Pizza Napoletana brand' to an audience of eager (sometimes misguided) pizza-makers and restauranteurs who feel this contrived sense of authenticity is equivalent to artisanal quality and excellence....or more cynically, a competitive edge in an already saturated market.
If you pay money for training and membership and then buy source all your ingredients from Campania, all your equipment from Naples....AND, after (and assuming) the VPN inspection team approves, you get to use the VPN logo and call yourself 'VPN approved'! Big deal.
They might as well be giving you golden arches to put up outside your pizzeria.
For those who claim this is preservation of tradition and culture, I say - go set up a heritage museum! . I can just see it now: a VPN task force descending on Shanghai to stamp out the manufacture of a new wave of 'fake neapolitan ovens'.
When's the last time VPN got involved in promoting domestic US produce such as olive oil, buffalo mozzarella etc. or educating US producers on how to mill 00 flour, for example? I'm guessing never...not now, not in the future. Here's hoping VPN proves me wrong!
@foolishpoolish: I agree with you completely -- I generally think that VPN is (at best) a heritage museum. Still, it's worthy of note that Pace and his group want to do preservation work. And if I had to choose between a VPN approved pizzeria and Pizza Hut... I'd probably go for the VPN shop.
Good points foolish, that I agree with.I think they probably had good intentions in wanting to protect a product and regional style,but untimately lost the plot.
Champagne got it right.
It would have been reassuring if you could have gone into any pizzeria in the world that was a member of that organisation and had confidence as to what to expect,much like a Michelin starred establishment.Now it is hit and miss,and has little credibility IMO.
I personally still fight tooth and nail in defense of the product and loath it's subsequent bastardisation,as I hope to be able to enjoy the real thing in at least some establishments outside of Naples in the coming years.I realise i'm in the minority,but so be it.
Agreed, I think it was probably started with good intentions which got lost somewhere mid atlantic.
Learning about Naples tradition is a valuable education for anyone interested in pizza and even guidelines such as those provided by the VPN are still a good *starting* point, if not the last word in pizza.
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21 Comments:
If people are going to get overly anal about authentic 'Naples' pizza then fine - I vote to leave Neapolitan Pizza in Naples.
Stipulations about tomatoes, flour, cheese and, yes oil poured from copper cannisters are all well and good when you're actually IN Naples. They are just ridiculous when you're in NY. Don't get me wrong, the ingredients are excellent and I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise (I use them regularly at home...although technically, I'm geographically closer to Naples than NY) - but at some point this whole authenticity thing risks becoming a smokescreen (wood fired, to be sure!) for the actual pizza.
foolishpoolish at 1:42PM on 10/22/09
@foolishpoolish: Well said. I had launched into a screed going in a similar direction as what you say here, but my words weren't as focused or coherent (I need to get lunch and get my brain in gear). Thanks for expressing that so succinctly.
I, too, think that the whole "authenticity" thing is sometimes a smokescreen and one that pizzaphiles are often too eager to be led astray by.
Adam Kuban at 1:49PM on 10/22/09
He's sort of contradicting himself. He rants "Here, in response to what the owners cynically feel the public wants, pizzaioli throw all sorts of crap on their pies, stuff that doesn't belong there." and then he goes on to pick Roberta's as his top choice. Do they serve jalapenos, pineapple, or capers on pizza in Naples?.
bobbob at 1:57PM on 10/22/09
@bobbob: Yes. That's what I was trying to get at, saying that if you diss other pizzerias for going crazy on toppings, you have to put Roberta's in that camp, too. Moreover, it was my understanding that Neapolitans sometimes put hot dogs and french fries on their pizzas.
Adam Kuban at 2:03PM on 10/22/09
Well, here we go again with the "true" Naples pie vs Naples inspired...I dont really care what they call it, as long as its great pizza..Once i try it, i'll know what to call it..and if i'll be back.fortunately, we here in LA(i cant believe i'm writing this) have awesome options for each, Mozza, definitely not authentic, way too many unusual but dellllicious toppings, and Antica, from the Neapolitan master himself..wonder what i'm hvin for lunch today...hmmm
L.A. Pizza Maven at 2:16PM on 10/22/09
Serious question: Do they call it 'Neapolitan Pizza' in Naples? or just pizza?
I'm not talking about the famous 'Antica' tourist destinations but the average pizzeria.
FP
You can take the Naples out of the pizza, and it's still good but take the pizza out of Naples and people are going to get upset.
foolishpoolish at 2:31PM on 10/22/09
So, is "The Village Voice" now D.O.C.? Maybe Mr. Sietsema should have written his article in Italian. He probably needs to live in a pizza hinterland for a couple of years. The only D.O.C. that matters to me is "New York pizza", "NY-style pizza", "New Haven pizza", etc. God, I'm gettin' hungry...going to have to hit Tomatoes soon.
Summerfield at 2:43PM on 10/22/09
I'm confused. Why call the best pizza category "Best Naples-Style Pizza" when you clearly think the label doesn't mean what everyone else thinks it means? Was "Best Pizza" already taken? Did he only name it that to tweak Keste, Motorino, etc. and to start up some controversy? It looks that way. And it has clearly worked. Doesn't seem very helpful to the readers, though.
sloppy at 3:21PM on 10/22/09
Flaming? They want flaming? How about sending them Dodgers back to Brooklyn!
Raoul Duke at 5:30PM on 10/22/09
You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss, a slice is just a slice.
The fundamental thing's a pie
As time goes by...
Summerfield at 5:32PM on 10/22/09
"Honestly, I've never been to Naples...." Naples? You haven't even been to Phoenix.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 6:29PM on 10/22/09
OH MAN!!
well... where do i start....
ok i have never had roberta's pizza
so i can only comment on how it looks
and since i can tell if a person's soul is rotting upon meeting him/her
BELIEVE me i can tell if a pizza is good.
i am looking forward to trying roberta's because the pizzas i saw on the internet do look good.... mmmmm....
but they look slightly different than Neapolitan, which of course does not mean it's good or bad,..... just different
BUT THAT IS MY POINT,
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT to Robert Sietsema
this CANNOT be the best Neapolitan, if it's a bit different than Neapolitan.
you can say it's better, FINE...but it's not necessarily the same.
so the argument doesn't make any sense when it's being made in the "Neapolitan"category.
AND to be fair (again respectfully) i am pretty sure Sietsema also said a while back that pizza is American and not Neapolitan, which I am sorry but there is more agreement on the Iraq war than on THAT!!!
My mother used to tell me how her great grandmother would make pizzas learned from older generations.
My mother is almost 60, meaning probably her great grandmother was probably born in 1850 and SHE learned it from older generations in Italy.
SO IT"S IMPOSSIBLE that Pizza was in America when we had the Revolution!!!
NOW if Sietsema wants to say that the "style of pizza" that is popularized around America and the world is more American...yes, he's right
but he should also add that THAT style includes low grade- shitty products that the Taliban wouldn't feed their captives, out of decent human respect.
BTW as i wrote this comment it took forever because some Nissan ad video kept popping up and stalling and wouldn't let me type. I REALLY hope it's not gonna be a full time thing on slice, cuz it drove me NUTS!
And
@ Foolishpoolish
No, they don't call it Neapolitan pizza in Naples, but that would be funny though!! I guess it's like why Philadelphians do not call a cheese steak a "Philly cheese steak" !!!
ha ha, they'd probably look at someone weird if they heard that
take care
Gianluca
http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
nextgospel at 6:47PM on 10/22/09
OHHH and i forgot
EVEN if Pizza were invented in America (which is wasn't) and not in Naples...
well then who else BUT NEAPOLITANS invented it in America?
Check mate!
and yes btw i am aware that primitive man was making breads and adding stuff on it and in theory that could be considered "pizza" but
that's not what's being discussed here
Gianluca
http://www.pizzaandcoffee.com/
nextgospel at 6:55PM on 10/22/09
@Paulie: Phoenix in T-minus 8 days.
Adam Kuban at 1:12AM on 10/23/09
Please tell Chris that I will be forever grateful for the time he spent with Michael and I, as well as for his generous hospitality. And also tell him that as he suggested, I will be sure to pay it forward.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 1:56AM on 10/23/09
Just to throw another log on this wood-fired commentary, here's a link to the VPN's official Pizza Discipline, also available at our VPN page.
Just thought, if we're gonna talk about "real" Neapolitan pizza, we should refer to the extremists' documentation...
passion4pizza at 11:32AM on 10/23/09
@passion4pizza
Anyone who makes pizza regularly with neapolitan ingredients will know that the official pizza discipline is a great guideline but it won't necessarily give you the best pizza followed word for word.
Things like "allows it to absorb between 50 to
55% of its weight in water to reach the “optimal point” and 4-6 hour rising times just don't produce an 'optimal' product. Work with the flour rather than trying to make your flour do what some guideline says.
Da Michele, for example, deviates from the VPN on several points. No one could accuse that institution of making sub-par neapolitan pizza.
The best pizza comes from experience not from rules and certification - and it's experience that makes pizzaiolos in Naples so good at what they do.
I submit there is an argument to be made that VPN America (for example) is just an attempt to franchise Neapolitan heritage. It essentially represents a consortium of local naples producers and craftspeople through selling the 'Verace Pizza Napoletana brand' to an audience of eager (sometimes misguided) pizza-makers and restauranteurs who feel this contrived sense of authenticity is equivalent to artisanal quality and excellence....or more cynically, a competitive edge in an already saturated market.
If you pay money for training and membership and then buy source all your ingredients from Campania, all your equipment from Naples....AND, after (and assuming) the VPN inspection team approves, you get to use the VPN logo and call yourself 'VPN approved'! Big deal.
They might as well be giving you golden arches to put up outside your pizzeria.
For those who claim this is preservation of tradition and culture, I say - go set up a heritage museum! . I can just see it now: a VPN task force descending on Shanghai to stamp out the manufacture of a new wave of 'fake neapolitan ovens'.
When's the last time VPN got involved in promoting domestic US produce such as olive oil, buffalo mozzarella etc. or educating US producers on how to mill 00 flour, for example? I'm guessing never...not now, not in the future. Here's hoping VPN proves me wrong!
foolishpoolish at 12:00PM on 10/23/09
@foolishpoolish: I agree with you completely -- I generally think that VPN is (at best) a heritage museum. Still, it's worthy of note that Pace and his group want to do preservation work. And if I had to choose between a VPN approved pizzeria and Pizza Hut... I'd probably go for the VPN shop.
passion4pizza at 12:34PM on 10/23/09
Good points foolish, that I agree with.I think they probably had good intentions in wanting to protect a product and regional style,but untimately lost the plot.
Champagne got it right.
It would have been reassuring if you could have gone into any pizzeria in the world that was a member of that organisation and had confidence as to what to expect,much like a Michelin starred establishment.Now it is hit and miss,and has little credibility IMO.
I personally still fight tooth and nail in defense of the product and loath it's subsequent bastardisation,as I hope to be able to enjoy the real thing in at least some establishments outside of Naples in the coming years.I realise i'm in the minority,but so be it.
seriouspizza at 2:12PM on 10/23/09
Agreed, I think it was probably started with good intentions which got lost somewhere mid atlantic.
Learning about Naples tradition is a valuable education for anyone interested in pizza and even guidelines such as those provided by the VPN are still a good *starting* point, if not the last word in pizza.
foolishpoolish at 2:17PM on 10/23/09
In his article Robert writes, "Now, Adam and me go way back."
Me? *ME?*
Where was he dragged up? And where is his editor?
To be a pizza writer, in addition to knowing pizza, it would help to know English.
Thomas_Traveler at 6:30PM on 10/28/09