Dear Slice: 'Barring Di Fara, Where Should I Go for Pizza on My NYC Visit?'
Posted by Adam Kuban, November 18, 2009 at 6:00 AM
Clicking in to the Slice inbox today, another question regarding an upcoming NYC pizza itinerary. I love these questions! --The Mgmt.
Adam and the Slice Crew,
I will be making my first visit to New York City in a few weeks, and I don't think it would be a proper visit if I left without trying some New York pizza. With that said, I have looked over your reviews and suggestions in the past, and with my limited time and rather packed schedule I just don't think I will be able to make Di Fara work with its seemingly rather high level of time commitment.
I have narrowed it down to Motorino, Co., and Lomardi's for the Naples-style pie that I traditionally like. But I can't really seem to make a decision. Any suggestions out of those three that would best sum up New York pizza?
Wow. That's a tough one. First off, those are three very different pies. Motorino is really the only "Naples-style" pie among them. Co. Company offers something closer to a Neapolitan pie than does Lombardi's, but even that pizza is a world apart from the more traditional Naples-style pies you'll find at Motorino. Co. Company's crust is more dense, chewy, and breadlike, whereas Motorino's is puffy, airy, and soft — and is at times a "wetter" pie than Co. Company's.
Lombardi's sausage pie.
Lombardi's (above) is what I'd call a New York–Neapolitan or a Neapolitan-American pizza. It has the Neapolitan-Italian DNA (fresh mozzarella, San Marzano tomato sauce, a focus on simplicity and balance), but like many of the old-time coal-oven pizzerias of NYC, the pie has been upsized to suit American tastes, and the crust is crisper than Motorino's. (Co. Company's crust can often be as crisp as Lombardi's, but it's a crapshoot because the pizza there can be inconsistent.
Motorino's hot soppressata pie.
Personally, I love Motorino's pizza (I'm currently in love with the brussels sprouts–pancetta pie and the hot soppressata pie), but, depending on where you're from, you can find examples of the more traditional Neapolitan style in many larger U.S. cities. So it's not like you can't get a similar product elsewhere. (That said, it's far better than many of the Neapolitan-style pizzas I've had elsewhere.)
Co. Company's Margherita pizza.
Co. Company and Lombardi's are pizza styles that would be difficult to get elsewhere. Co.'s is more of an "artisanal" pizza, whereas Lombardi's, if I were pressed to say it, probably represents a more traditional type of New York pizza. (Granted, one that is far removed from a typical greasy corner slice joint.)
As you can see, I've probably introduced more gray area here than you wanted, but I am obsessed with the pizza, and it's very difficult for me to make a black-and-white decision.
What do you all think out there? Where would you send Josh? (Again, not Di Fara.)
Josh, just look at that sopressata pie. How can you possibly pass that up? And I must say, that is the best looking Co. pie I have seen. That is called a dilemma. Sorry.
@Slicemeister Have you ever tried the Brussels Sprout pie with speck?
I've been to Co. once. I'll probably give it a second shot although after the initial visit it struck me as a place good enough to eat at if you happen to be nearby but not worth a special trip.
well, you can't go too wrong with any of these three, but i definitely agree with adam on the brussels sprouts and pancetta and the hot sopressata pies at motorino. they were awesome.
I would go to Luzzo's rather than Lombardi's. I know people seem to be mixed on Luzzo's but I thought it was great when I went and if you are looking for Naples-style pizza it is definitely a lot closer than Lombardi's. I've only been to Lombardi's once but it wasn't that great. An OK pizza but if I was only going to visit 3 that definitely wouldn't be one of them.
Motorino has been great 2/3 times I've been there. Last time it wasn't nearly as good but hopefully that was just a one-time thing (talking about williamsburg location).
I dunno. If I were doing Naples-style and had to choose between Luzzo's and Motorino Manhattan (which is literally just around the corner), I would HANDS DOWN go to Motorino. Luzzo's, every time I've been (and I've gone many times at the insistence of people who write to tell me it's great), has had an absolutely flavorless crust. There is just no way that Luzzo's is in the same league as Motorino.
And, to get things back to apples-to-apples, comparing a Lombardi's pie (Neapolitan-American) to a Naples-style pie is apples to oranges. If you wanted a traditional Neapolitan pizza, then, no, you wouldn't go to Lombardi's.
But part of what Josh was asking was "Any suggestions out of those three that would best sum up New York pizza?"
Like I said, if pressed, I would have to say that, of the options Josh lists, Lombardi's best "sums up New York pizza." The traditional Naples-style pies are a relatively recent development in NYC pizza, with perhaps the first incursion of the genre coming in 1987 with Mezzogiorno in SoHo. But, according to pizza maven Ed Levine, La Pizza Fresca (opened in 1996) really pioneered the Neapolitan-pizza movement here in the city. All these types of pizza best represent Naples.
And, of course, you're going to get a lot of people who say that the coal-oven places like Lombardi's (or Totonno's, Patsy's, John's, Arturo's, or Grimaldi's) aren't truly representative of New York pizza since what most people eat day to day are slices from run-of-the-mill neighborhood pizzerias.
To sum up, given Josh's choices above, I would say ...
Motorino: If you want THE BEST TASTING pizza, prefer trad Neapolitan-style, and don't necessarily care about NYC pizza history.*
Lombardi's: If you want to get a taste of the whole NYC coal-oven thing. (Be sure to ask to see the oven, and see if they'll reel off some of the specifics of how it works.)
Co. Company: If for some reason you're near it and don't have time for the others.
*In the interest of historical accuracy, I have to point out that the current Lombardi's is not in the original location and has not been operating continuously since 1905, which is when Gennaro Lombardi first applied for his pizzeria license. The original, at 53 Spring Street, closed in 1984. The current one opened in 1994 at 32 Spring Street, with a Lombardi grandson (also named Gennaro) as co-owner. Eric Asimov has more on the history of the current Lombardi's founding in this 1996 article from the New York Times.
i've always had the exact opposite sentiment with adam's luzzo-motorino comparison - even did a same-afternoon comparison on my birthday, and the general consensus definitely prefered luzzo overall. i can't exactly pinpoint why i do; i like its thinner crust style better.
as for the new york coal-oven - lombardi's? really? i'd happily take the original patsy's or possibly even one of the chain locations of patsy's or angelo's over it. I'd take grimaldi's over it, even if their inconsistent pies and tourist trap line get worse every year. i guess it works as a good tourist location due to its proximity to the brooklyn bridge. I'd take nick's and totonno's UES locations over it. ever since i first went to lombardi's in '02, i've always been underwhelmed by its hype--although i've always appreciated its history.
artichoke basille's may be overrated, but i believe their proximity to union square helps those that want to see what di fara's is like. "wha?!", you say? well, my fave di fara offering is his square slice, and i think the basille boys' square slice at least gives a hint to the uninitiated what dom's work may taste like without having to make a three hour minimum trip. it's not the same, but the cost/benefit ratio can be helpful to a tourist with a tight schedule. just don't bother with the artichoke slice.
@pizzasnob: We'll have to agree to disagree here on Motorino-Luzzo. That's fine. Just wanted to jump in here re Lombardi's. I would in no way recommend it above Patsy's (East Harlem), Totonno's, etc., but, as I pointed out, given Josh's list above, that's what I had to work with. If he wanted to do coal-oven and time/travel were not a factor, I'd send him to Patsy's or Totonno's Coney (if it were open). I haven't been to Totonno's UES in a while so can't vouch, but Totonno's 26th/2nd was not worth sending someone to. I'd go to John's Bleecker Street or Arturo's before Totonno's 26th.
Artichoke on square might actually be a good suggestion for a taste of Di Fara.
Pizzasnob: No need to apologize. I didn't take it as a flame! I think you were right on about what you said. As for Luzzo's, that one, I've come to learn over the years, is a love it–don't get it situation and probably does come down to the crispness/thinness issues you mention.
Go to Di Fara. The way you phrased your question it seems like Di Fara is your #1 choice.
Co., Motorino, and Lombardi's are all likely to be there when you return but I wish I could say the same for Di Fara. Make it work. Go at an off-peak time (late lunch before they close to prepare for dinner). It's 40 minutes from Times Sq by subway. Otherwise you'll come and likely enjoy any number of great pizzerias but you won't have been to Di Fara. If you have time for a second choice, then consider those others, but if I were you, I'd pay a visit to Dom.
I'd have to agree with Sean. The DiFara experience is worth the trip. DiFara's probably isn't my favorite pizza (here I go - not succumbing to 'groupthink'), but Dom is probably my favorite pizzaiolo.
And when you tell people you had pizza in New York and someone raises the eyebrow and asks, "but did you go to DiFara?" your response can be a Gary-Cooperish "yup."
Sorry, when I made my post about Luzzo's I was under the impression that he was going to three pizzerias, not just one.
If you're going to just one of those three I don't think it is a question, Motorino is the best. Only question is Manhattan/Williamsburg location, idk, has there been any consensus on which is better or are they pretty much the same?
Di Fara is definitely worth the trip but he already said he doesn't have time for that. Although if he did that would be the place to go.
Thanks everyone for all your great feedback, Josh S. here. I will fully admit that I don't know the difference between Naples and Neapolitan so forgive me if I made things confusing. I had narrowed down the list to these 3 based upon proximity to other items that I will be nearby.
As I had mentioned I just don't think that Di Fara is truly and option for me. With my schedule it looks like the only day I could potentially make it, is Monday and well I know they aren't open on Monday or Tuesday.
Based upon everyones recommendations and comments I think I will be choosing Motorino for my choice of pie. While I am all for history, I will be more certainly impressed with the taste of the pie rather than the history. Depending on a couple of factors I might be able to make it to Lombardi's if anything for comparison and completeness.
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PrintAdam and the Slice Crew,
17 Comments:
Just get to Difara early.
pizzalove at 9:03AM on 11/18/09
Josh, just look at that sopressata pie. How can you possibly pass that up? And I must say, that is the best looking Co. pie I have seen. That is called a dilemma. Sorry.
@Slicemeister Have you ever tried the Brussels Sprout pie with speck?
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 9:17AM on 11/18/09
Paulie - You are becoming a little more egalitarian in you old age. How's the place coming? Having fun yet?
captpizza at 9:37AM on 11/18/09
I've been to Co. once. I'll probably give it a second shot although after the initial visit it struck me as a place good enough to eat at if you happen to be nearby but not worth a special trip.
I could eat Motorino every night.
bobbob at 10:42AM on 11/18/09
well, you can't go too wrong with any of these three, but i definitely agree with adam on the brussels sprouts and pancetta and the hot sopressata pies at motorino. they were awesome.
airstrikemike at 11:12AM on 11/18/09
I would go to Luzzo's rather than Lombardi's. I know people seem to be mixed on Luzzo's but I thought it was great when I went and if you are looking for Naples-style pizza it is definitely a lot closer than Lombardi's. I've only been to Lombardi's once but it wasn't that great. An OK pizza but if I was only going to visit 3 that definitely wouldn't be one of them.
Motorino has been great 2/3 times I've been there. Last time it wasn't nearly as good but hopefully that was just a one-time thing (talking about williamsburg location).
Extelleron at 12:03PM on 11/18/09
Don't want to get off topic captpizza. I'd hate to wear out my welcome.
Ciao,
Paulie Gee
pauliegee at 12:25PM on 11/18/09
I dunno. If I were doing Naples-style and had to choose between Luzzo's and Motorino Manhattan (which is literally just around the corner), I would HANDS DOWN go to Motorino. Luzzo's, every time I've been (and I've gone many times at the insistence of people who write to tell me it's great), has had an absolutely flavorless crust. There is just no way that Luzzo's is in the same league as Motorino.
And, to get things back to apples-to-apples, comparing a Lombardi's pie (Neapolitan-American) to a Naples-style pie is apples to oranges. If you wanted a traditional Neapolitan pizza, then, no, you wouldn't go to Lombardi's.
But part of what Josh was asking was "Any suggestions out of those three that would best sum up New York pizza?"
Like I said, if pressed, I would have to say that, of the options Josh lists, Lombardi's best "sums up New York pizza." The traditional Naples-style pies are a relatively recent development in NYC pizza, with perhaps the first incursion of the genre coming in 1987 with Mezzogiorno in SoHo. But, according to pizza maven Ed Levine, La Pizza Fresca (opened in 1996) really pioneered the Neapolitan-pizza movement here in the city. All these types of pizza best represent Naples.
And, of course, you're going to get a lot of people who say that the coal-oven places like Lombardi's (or Totonno's, Patsy's, John's, Arturo's, or Grimaldi's) aren't truly representative of New York pizza since what most people eat day to day are slices from run-of-the-mill neighborhood pizzerias.
To sum up, given Josh's choices above, I would say ...
Motorino: If you want THE BEST TASTING pizza, prefer trad Neapolitan-style, and don't necessarily care about NYC pizza history.*
Lombardi's: If you want to get a taste of the whole NYC coal-oven thing. (Be sure to ask to see the oven, and see if they'll reel off some of the specifics of how it works.)
Co. Company: If for some reason you're near it and don't have time for the others.
*In the interest of historical accuracy, I have to point out that the current Lombardi's is not in the original location and has not been operating continuously since 1905, which is when Gennaro Lombardi first applied for his pizzeria license. The original, at 53 Spring Street, closed in 1984. The current one opened in 1994 at 32 Spring Street, with a Lombardi grandson (also named Gennaro) as co-owner. Eric Asimov has more on the history of the current Lombardi's founding in this 1996 article from the New York Times.
Adam Kuban at 12:55PM on 11/18/09
Lombardi's. Do it. It won't disappoint. Can't get pizza like that virtually anywhere outside of NYC.
Motorino's fantastic, but good neapolitan-esque pizzas aren't too hard to find these days.
Co. ... eh. I don't get what the fuss is about. It's good, but not great in my book.
egadman at 2:39PM on 11/18/09
i've always had the exact opposite sentiment with adam's luzzo-motorino comparison - even did a same-afternoon comparison on my birthday, and the general consensus definitely prefered luzzo overall. i can't exactly pinpoint why i do; i like its thinner crust style better.
as for the new york coal-oven - lombardi's? really? i'd happily take the original patsy's or possibly even one of the chain locations of patsy's or angelo's over it. I'd take grimaldi's over it, even if their inconsistent pies and tourist trap line get worse every year. i guess it works as a good tourist location due to its proximity to the brooklyn bridge. I'd take nick's and totonno's UES locations over it. ever since i first went to lombardi's in '02, i've always been underwhelmed by its hype--although i've always appreciated its history.
artichoke basille's may be overrated, but i believe their proximity to union square helps those that want to see what di fara's is like. "wha?!", you say? well, my fave di fara offering is his square slice, and i think the basille boys' square slice at least gives a hint to the uninitiated what dom's work may taste like without having to make a three hour minimum trip. it's not the same, but the cost/benefit ratio can be helpful to a tourist with a tight schedule. just don't bother with the artichoke slice.
pizzasnob at 3:36PM on 11/18/09
@pizzasnob: We'll have to agree to disagree here on Motorino-Luzzo. That's fine. Just wanted to jump in here re Lombardi's. I would in no way recommend it above Patsy's (East Harlem), Totonno's, etc., but, as I pointed out, given Josh's list above, that's what I had to work with. If he wanted to do coal-oven and time/travel were not a factor, I'd send him to Patsy's or Totonno's Coney (if it were open). I haven't been to Totonno's UES in a while so can't vouch, but Totonno's 26th/2nd was not worth sending someone to. I'd go to John's Bleecker Street or Arturo's before Totonno's 26th.
Artichoke on square might actually be a good suggestion for a taste of Di Fara.
Adam Kuban at 3:53PM on 11/18/09
btw - just re-read my post. might have come off more critical than i thought - no flame intended (but this pun? for sure!). sorry bro.
anyhow - i thought i'd branch out from his list to give him more options.
pizzasnob at 4:22PM on 11/18/09
Pizzasnob: No need to apologize. I didn't take it as a flame! I think you were right on about what you said. As for Luzzo's, that one, I've come to learn over the years, is a love it–don't get it situation and probably does come down to the crispness/thinness issues you mention.
Adam Kuban at 4:47PM on 11/18/09
Go to Di Fara. The way you phrased your question it seems like Di Fara is your #1 choice.
Co., Motorino, and Lombardi's are all likely to be there when you return but I wish I could say the same for Di Fara. Make it work. Go at an off-peak time (late lunch before they close to prepare for dinner). It's 40 minutes from Times Sq by subway. Otherwise you'll come and likely enjoy any number of great pizzerias but you won't have been to Di Fara. If you have time for a second choice, then consider those others, but if I were you, I'd pay a visit to Dom.
Hope you like NY!
sean_taylor at 7:28PM on 11/18/09
I'd have to agree with Sean. The DiFara experience is worth the trip. DiFara's probably isn't my favorite pizza (here I go - not succumbing to 'groupthink'), but Dom is probably my favorite pizzaiolo.
And when you tell people you had pizza in New York and someone raises the eyebrow and asks, "but did you go to DiFara?" your response can be a Gary-Cooperish "yup."
passion4pizza at 10:52PM on 11/18/09
Sorry, when I made my post about Luzzo's I was under the impression that he was going to three pizzerias, not just one.
If you're going to just one of those three I don't think it is a question, Motorino is the best. Only question is Manhattan/Williamsburg location, idk, has there been any consensus on which is better or are they pretty much the same?
Di Fara is definitely worth the trip but he already said he doesn't have time for that. Although if he did that would be the place to go.
Extelleron at 5:51AM on 11/19/09
Thanks everyone for all your great feedback, Josh S. here. I will fully admit that I don't know the difference between Naples and Neapolitan so forgive me if I made things confusing. I had narrowed down the list to these 3 based upon proximity to other items that I will be nearby.
As I had mentioned I just don't think that Di Fara is truly and option for me. With my schedule it looks like the only day I could potentially make it, is Monday and well I know they aren't open on Monday or Tuesday.
Based upon everyones recommendations and comments I think I will be choosing Motorino for my choice of pie. While I am all for history, I will be more certainly impressed with the taste of the pie rather than the history. Depending on a couple of factors I might be able to make it to Lombardi's if anything for comparison and completeness.
FrostyGhost at 1:50PM on 11/19/09